Thursday, August 17, 2006

Group Hugs, Mucho Mojo & Trashing

Over in the recent Newbies and Lurkers Thread at BT, Booman asks:

yeah, yeah...but do you have a blog dedicated to trashing you?

To which I would reply, 'I do! I do!.' I won't link to it here. Let's just say she calls herself a 'stubble jumping redneck' and the rest of the url is blogspot.com. (Wouldn't want her showing up here. She's somewhat unstable.)

And then there's the ever popular blog 'dedicated to those who have suffered and been raped and abused by the troll posing as a liberal blogger, Ductape Fatwa' which, thankfully, has become eerily silent.

So, all in all, I'd say poor Booman gets off pretty damn easy around these parts considering what Monsieur Ductape and I have had to put up with.

Now, there seems to be a new renaissance over at the pond with the influx of nouveau users and the outflux (is that a word?) of nasty people like me. 'I'm too nasty for for shirt - too nasty for my shirt - too nasty.' And, I'm sure there will be smooth sailing over there from now to eternity (unless they start piling on Sirocco or until MWAC gets back). Then again, we all know that purges (just like enemas) can't keep out the unhealthy bacteria forever because the monster must be fed. So I hope they enjoy their relative calm while it lasts. Group hugs fix everything in the end, don't they? (she said, sarcastically)

(Best wishes to those in that thread who are ill and hopes for a speedy recovery.)

And, oh yeah, 'we are all Hezbollah'. ;)

And who doesn't like Dressing Paris Hilton??

165 comments:

spiderleaf said...

catnip, you suck, you ruin my day, you spit on my dog.

I love you.

And Paris Hilton looks a lot like Malibu Barbie... an awful lot of fun to dress fer sure!

catnip said...

You suck too and Barbie has much bigger boobs.

I love you too.

catnip said...

I conjured up my stalker by writing that. She cut through my ban and posted on my blog this evening. That woman is seriously deranged. Boo should be thankful that we're actually rational people on this blog!

James said...

I've often said that Boo has been fortunate that his blog has somehow managed to avoid any serious trolls.

The dude really does need to lighten up a bit. Maybe an episode of The Skeletor Show would cheer him up a bit.

So it goes. I kinda like ol' Booman even though I know the sentiment isn't quite mutual. Sheesh. The words here won't bite him.

sjct said...

You should be grateful. If BooMan hadn't linked to this blog, I would never have known where all the trouble-makers went...

supersoling said...

Funny how he didn't link to the one who really blew up his blog for weeks. But we're troublemakers. By removing a lot of the meta from BT, we're trouble makers. That makes a whole lotta fucking sense.

BTW, half of us "troublemakers" are still there.

brinn5deep said...

Yay! So glad BooMan linked to this blog -- I never would have found it either! But really, "dedicated to trashing him", er....

Love the list of contributors
Damnit -- ya'll don't tell me anything anymore!
;)

spiderleaf said...

Hey Bri - you really need another handle, yours is a bit too short me thinks... ;)

.....

Yeah, that would be why I lifted my self imposed ban and called him on da bullshit. I was quite proud of my "how exceptional things are" sentence :) damn I crack myself up some times.

Personally I think he was doing it for some perverted version of street cred... otherwise why on earth bring that up in a thread welcoming newbies to the site?

deep5bri said...

hey spidey!

I have given up trying to understand a number of things that site owners/participants do or do not do or say the do or don't or say other should but then do....

Oh, sorry, my week has been full of head shaking, and outright laughter.

As to the handle, I choose in only as a matter of expediency to let you all know who I am -- I'm thinking of taking on another brand-new one or coming up with a better combo of those 3!

by the by -- are there any rantstarter posistions still open? if not, that's cool -- always been comfy doing it int he comments!
;)
;)

sjct said...

Sorry, Super. Guess I should have put a smiley face after my comment. You shouldn't have taken "trouble-maker" as an insult. I like trouble-makers. Hell, I'm the one who personally invited DTF to the Pond way back when.

You said: "He didn't link to the one who really blew up his blog for weeks" and I'm naturally curious... Could you provide a link? I've been mainly AFK lately and obviously missed lots of happenings.

catnip said...

Oh look! More troublemakers. ;)

Can we call ourselves a gang yet?

James said...

Welcome to the 'hood sjct! We got troublemakers galore. :-)

supersoling said...

Sjct,
Oops ;o)
My apologies for my little tantrum. I actually did wonder for a sec if you weren't being snarky or winking. But this shows why I haven't posted much because I usually just spill my guts and right now I'm feeling a little hostile about...well, just about everything. So it's best not to just splatter profanities all over the place. I'm sorry for jumping on you that way.

The link I was talking about would've been to some of Tracy's comments that I've seen at dKos that take some pretty nasty swipes at the whole of BMT, not just those of us who pissed her off. Peace gone wild, as she put it. Turns out that she was right and Peace has Gone Wild ;o)


Brinn!!! Nice to see you here :o) I think DTF has the original set of keys to the house, but I'm sure we would all appreciate another troublemaker in the house. I know I would :o)

James said...

Oh yeah - welcome to the legion of doom, brinn!

5heartsindeepbrineTX said...

thanks for the welcome, you incorrigible (thank goodness!) shits!
;)

I am so sick of sanctimonoius bullshit, I could rip my own toenails out by the roots....

trouble-makers, shit-stirrers, and what was it you got called on MLW, catnip? a "serial blog wrecker"? "looney leftists", and "anti-the-crpatacular-spectacle-known-as-America-ans"....

Unite!

yours, in solidarity,

er,

who do YOU think I should be?!

Vote here on a new handle:

deepheart5brintx said...

oh, and I wanted to share this with you as the best response to the current bunch of bullcrap at MLW.
comment by beagelandtabby

and if you aren't familiar with b&t, I think everyone here would love and appreciate him as much as I do. Anyway, what he had to say there 9is some gooood and no holds barred meta.

"There is no crying in blogball."

Indeed.

dove said...

Spiderleaf
I've no idea why he did it: when he did something similar re InFlight vis a vis Alex I assumed at the time that it was intended as a 'cry havoc and let slip the kitty-cats of war'/'release the hounds' kind of moment, but I don't know.

Hi brinn,
Do you know about the Eegian diaspora/neighbourhood/thingy? Nanette does a roundup over at Man Eegee's every Sunday which is really good.

Anonymous said...

did not, dove! thanks for the tip!
I'll be there this weekend!

do you have keys to the castle? I had expressed interst in being a rantstarter if ya'll still needed any....was wondering if DTF was the only one who could confer the "powah" -- either way, as I said, I am happy enough just to be here!
;)

dove said...

I'll give it a go -- I think I need your email though

spiderleaf said...

Bri, I sent an invite in the mail.

I vote for "Mental Help" as your new handle ;)

catnip said...

Where have you been hiding Brinn? And I like your ever changing nicknames. :)

That beagleandtabby comment was right on. The only thing I disagree with is holding on to the right to ban real trolls - not people who just disagree with you, but those whose only agenda is to cause major disruptions - not via opinions, but through name-calling etc. I've certainly banned those who've made extreme comments on my blog. They can post their crap elsewhere. I don't put up with clearly racist or bigoted comments. I do give people warnings but, if they continue with identifiable hate speech, they're toast.

I realize that differs from some of the actions of blog owners on the big community sites where people have been banned for posting conspiracy theories or unpopular opinions. I don't ban people for that kind of stuff because I believe in diversity in thinking, but when Commenter A continually labels me a terrorist supporter or makes death threats against people, they can start their own blog and do that all they want there.

I haven't followed the continuing goings on at MLW but I was surprised to discover not long ago that I'm still seen as a "serial blog wrecker" by some people over there who actually believe that MLW never had any problems until I posted my diary about meta navel-gazing there back in the spring (which I deleted at MLW but eugene reposted despite my objections). I'm so powerful that I derailed an entire community - forever!!

The funny thing is that I posted that diary after I'd read several other meta navel-gazing discussions over there. Denial ain't just a feature of right-wingers. I was seen as an "outsider" so how dare I have an opinion of a site which I read often? Oh my. That's treasonous.

Afaic, wu ming can bite me. So can eugene.

Shit happens.

The meta meta meta that goes on at the community blogs is quite nauseating after a while. If they'd just follow their own rules - and that includes the site owners - maybe they'd actually get somewhere.
/end 'o rant

catnip said...

Monsieur Ductape,

(Speaking of group hugs) what's this about?

undecided said...

thanks, spidey!

don't think I'll go with mental help, though it did make me lmfao!
;)

catnip -- I can't say one way or another what I would do as blog proprietor, though I used to think people wanted suggestions offered (I have since learned better!lol) and offered them -- much to everyone's chagrin....

Until the day that I have written the software I really want and created a space for something that I think will suit me better ("beyond politics and back" is a name I have been throwing around in my head -- ouch!), I don't judge anyone -- all I have ever asked for is a clear statement of the rules, structure and goals of a site and then adherence to them across the board. Unfortunaly this seems to be beyond many blog proprietors....

ANYway...I need to think of some sort of handle here -- maybe I need to stick with brinn, since so many of you know me as that...

[goes away to ponder on it]

other5bri said...

shit!

I cannot decide....

deepheart5?

txinbrinne?

dontcallmelatefordinner?

guddoeh? (that's one that you all have probably never seen me as...)

poettripe?

asyouwish?

don't mind me?

tipofthesky...

shit.

I'll make a decision, but be sure to throw your 17 cents in if you feel like it...

catnip said...

I like tipofthesky or just plain Brinn.

Nanette said...

I vote for brinn_etcetera ;)

catnip said...

Oh. I like that one too! :)

Anonymous said...

thanks, catnip and nanette!

I am just sort of being silly...

brinnetc

I kind of like a lot (don't do capital letters, I so often forget to use that shift key...)

tipofthesky

comes from a convo I was having with son the elder ealier this week about how he wished he was at "the tip of the world" right now....it has been over 60% humidity and 101 these past few weeks or so -- talk about nasty (and of course the huge bills that go with keeping the house at a nice "cool" 80 during the day...)

shit! now I am rambling incoherently, I am supposed to be pondering!
;)

brinn.etc. said...

are any other non alphanumeric characters aside for the ubiqutuos underscore allowed in user names? never spent a whole lotta time on blogger...


oh, I know -- I'll go try it out!

brinn~etc. said...

what do you all think of that variation ^^
?

brinn.etc~ said...

could I BE more slef-absorbed?!?

christ on a popsicle stick crutch with toast...

be back in a few -- are ya'll usre you want to put up with me on a regular basis!?
rotfl

brinn5~etc said...

just one last "seeing how it looks" before the final decision....

supersoling said...

Had much sugar today Brinn? :o)

brinn5etc said...

no, super, no sugar, just not enough actual food....

but, hey, it's Friday!

spiderleaf said...

you could be more self absorbed if you started referring to yourself in the third person while posting variations on your nick... ;)

I like brinn5etc personally.

brinn said...

catnip -- just had to say, 'cause this is a placw where we name names and say what we really think...right? right?!

that wu ming is one of the finest communicators in the blogoschaos, and I have great respect for him as a person.

I am sure that he would bite you if it thought it would help with communications -- that comment that you linked to, though I can understand your reaction to / interpretation of it, I read more as indictment of the knee-jerk defensive reactions than of your diary itself....

There have been many things/posters who have been "the root of all evil" in my time there, and the only one that I even remotely agreed with just getting rid of was DavidByron and even then it pissed me off because the way soapblox works, once he was summarily banned (there was no notication of this, only after the fact) ALL of the comments attached to anything he ever wrote there were disappeared....I did not like that one little bit.

crap. and shit. rambling on again...

brinn5etc said...

coo! siderleaf, thank you!

that was the one I have been leaning toward in my ponderings...just so that way it won't look odd when ya'll call me brinn, and, if anyone who knows me as such, calls me 5 or 5er.

Which reminds me, do you all want linky dinks to this place? or advertising of any kind? should I only tell the "right kind of people"?

LOL!!!

Definately, minus the tilde, 'cause shit, if I can't remember to hit the shift key, how the hell am I gonna put my pinky way up there AND hit the shift key at the same time....wouldn't happen.

okies, I am off to make my account and begin composing...a, well, something to post!

brinn5etc. said...

well, that was the polar opposite of an unmitigated success...

i followed the link in your email, spidey, but couldn't get blogger to accept my "make a new account info."...

any ideas?

have I been banned from Blogger because of my up until now, utter lack of participation?!
;)

catnip said...

brinn~etc,
Yes you certainly can name names here.

As for wu ming, it's this part of his comment that struck me as way over the top:

ever since catnip's diary, and the accusations that it levelled against our community out of hand, and our defensive response to its claims that all we did was navel-gazing, we have been in the process of losing that environment, and have slipped into a sort of seige mentality, which has only been exacerbated in recent weeks with these stupid, self-destructive flamewars.

If he'd actually read my diary or the comments I made about it at MLW, he'd know that bit about my allegedly saying that all they did was navel-gaze was bullshit. And, as I said, there certainly was a lot of dissention on MLW before I posted that diary so it sure didn't start with me. I had read at least a couple of achingly long meta diaries over there that were posted shortly before I posted mine.

I don't mind being criticized - as long as it's actually based in reality.

Nanette said...

brinn, are you trying with and without periods and tildes and all that?

catnip said...

OMG! What's this??

as bullshit as catnip's initial post might have been, i wonder if our response to it, and the way in which we formed ranks didn't inadvertantly end up proving her right.
wu ming


Holy crap, Batman.

canberra boy said...

Hey, glad to see you troublemakers here. Hope you'll forgive me for crashing your party.

Let me be blunt. I have never been troubled by what goes on at MLW because I have generally given the site a very wide berth. I was forewarned about the proprietor 18 months or more ago when I saw her launch a viscious and (as far as I could tell) unprovoked attack on someone commenting at dKos. In my observation her career since has been all about self promotion rather than the promotion of causes. I was staggered that Booman offered her a frontpage post, and found it blatantly obvious that she has since only posted things to promote herself and her new site, when it later emerged.

BT itself I view more with sorrow than anger. It has never been as good as I found it before SusanHu departed: I think the lack of female frontpagers is a problem and Susan also had a reasonably internationalist perspective that broadened the site beyond American domestic concerns.

I think Booman himself has been a very tolerant host - but perhaps extended this into being too tolerant when it came to recent eruptions from our friend Tracy. I was taken aback by his warm endorsement of American exceptionalism a few weeks ago, but now I can see that (like religion) this is so ingrained in most Americans that you have to forgive them for it because they really can't see beyond it at all. While slightly upset with Booman about this I still think that BT is a worthwhile site and find I agree with Booman most of the time. I'm afraid, though, that I'll never be able to offer him my unconditional love.

Anyway, I hope you'll tolerate my dropping in here occasionally to compare Paris Hilton outfits. (PS DTF - you and your descendents have given me something new to show my 8yo!)

BooMan said...

I'd like to know who I purged?

I recall asking you to stay.

My recollection is that you delinked your blog from mine, sent me an email questioning whether I was letting my love life cloud my judgment and started posting angry critiques of my writing at your blog.

If you haven't noticed the people that were arguing on the other side (Tracy, MWOC, and Sally) have left the blog of their own volition. They left for the same reason that some of you left. Apparently they thought I should silence one side, or ban people for breaking the rules.

So, both sides took up sides, treated each other shabbily, and I get most of the blame.

When I banned Parker for repeating slander for months and for serially violating the prick rule, I lost a third of the members. Apparently I was supposed to allow free speech, no matter the rules or truth of that speech.

When I finally banned Brinnainne after months of trying to appease her, no one gave a shit. But she is welcomed here with open arms as some of kind of comrade in arms, even though none of you have been banned or even asked to leave.

Funny, because I doubt Tracy would be welcomed even though her behavior towards some of you paled in comparison to Brinnainne's treatment of Susan and of me.

As for the accusation that you are a serial wrecker of blogs, it does seem that you are at the center of a lot of disruption. How many blogs are you no longer posting on in addition to Daily Kos, Booman Tribune, and My Left Wing?

I'm flattered that you think my antics are worthy of ongoing critique. I value loyalty.

supersoling said...

Canberra Boy,
I'm looking forward to you dropping in once in a while. And I agree with nearly everything in your comment. Though I'm kinda agnostic about Msoc and her blog, having never seen the things you describe seeing. And nearly everyone is an attention seeker to a degree, though she maybe more than most. But that's not nescesarrily a bad thing. Also, this week she re-instated some members who had been banned by her admins. in her absence. I appreciated her doing that.

Peace

supersoling said...

Booman,
I can only speak to certain parts of your comment since most of it seems to be directed at Catnip.

I think I've stated in comments on this blog somewhere that I didn't see anything that looked like a purge to me. If it was a purge, then me, James, Damnit Janet, and Spiderleaf would've been banned the way I see it. But it could've had the effect of a purge by chilling people's ability to post diaries and comments that were anti-militarism and anti-exceptionalist. It definetily could've had that effect on lurkers who were considering joining and participating. But it's your place, so it should reflect your point of view for the most part, right?

As far as welcoming Brinn goes, again, I can only speak for myself. I've maintaind some contact with her since her time at BT ended. I didn't see much of what you describe about yours and Susan's problems with her. But I did see a continuing strain. And I didn't blame you for banning her at the time really. Though it disappointed me greatly.

But to equate the actions of Brinn with what Tracy was allowed to do, and to let it run on for weeks, is unfair I think. I never saw Brinn crash people's diaries the way Tracy did. Not ever. Especially not at the level of hostility and profanity laced attacks as Tracy heaped on people. I mean, even Diane101 was attacked by her. And she spread it around pretty good too. Not just to those of us who were singled out as the source of her rage. That she left on her own is a good thing. I thing BT's been a lot calmer since then. Though I do miss the way it was last year.

Anyway, yes, I welcome Brinn here. We share a lot of the same opinions about things. It has nothing to do with loyalty. Nor does my being here have anything to do with loyalty to you or anyone else. Like Canberra Boy said above, I agree with you most of the time too. But I don't owe any allegiance to you because of that. Anymore than I owe allegince to this blog. And just because my name is on it doesn't mean I agree with everything that's written here.

Peace

catnip said...

Booman,

I just woke up but I'll give my reponse to your comments my best shot.

1) I'd like to know who I purged?

By taking sides with Tracy for so long, you did end up purging (cleansing) those of us who had opinions you didn't agree with. Had you been unbiased, the blame would lie squarely with her and her supporters.

2) My recollection is that you delinked your blog from mine, sent me an email questioning whether I was letting my love life cloud my judgment and started posting angry critiques of my writing at your blog.

Your recollection of the timing, characterization and scope of the events is wrong. And we've had this debate before. You're free to believe whatever you like, however.

3) So, both sides took up sides, treated each other shabbily, and I get most of the blame.

Are you stepping back from sharing some of the blame now after you had apologized for not handling the situation differently?

4) I don't know what happened with Parker and Brinn. Someone else can address that.

5) Funny, because I doubt Tracy would be welcomed

You want to know why she wouldn't be welcomed by me? She's a hypocrite. She ranted and raved about how her husband's job was supposedly in jeopardy because of all of the alleged "military haters" but she's still posting at dkos in controversial diaries about the military. She can take her blame and ranting against us and shove it.

And I told you her actions would speak louder than her words after you scolded me repeatedly for not accepting her apology. I never did hear back from you about that after she exploded again and proved me right.

6)As for the accusation that you are a serial wrecker of blogs, it does seem that you are at the center of a lot of disruption.

Oh my goodness. She has an opinion that some people don't like. Let's call that "disruption", shall we? And did I actually "wreck" any of those blogs? If I did, why did you even bother asking me to come back to yours?

7) How many blogs are you no longer posting on in addition to Daily Kos, Booman Tribune, and My Left Wing?

The big three community blogs, you'll notice. I've said over and over that I deplore the ratings system, the cliques and the echo chamber.

Do you want to see what I consider to be one of the best models of what a community blog should be about? Read this:

The Next Agenda favours a political philosophy of progress toward better conditions for all Canadians. We respect the rights, opinions and practices of others. We embrace new ideas and positive change. We uphold human rights, women’s rights, reproductive rights, environmentalism, multiculturalism, universal healthcare and education.

The Next Agenda does not represent a specific political party but supports political candidates and elected representatives who demonstrate a commitment to progressive ideals. The Next Agenda is a place for sharing ideas, informed and civilized debate, and rousing the community to action. It is not a place for hateful comments, bigotry, authoritarianism or unwarranted smear campaigns.


That far surpasses "don't be a prick" which is constantly up for debate at your blog.

8) I'm flattered that you think my antics are worthy of ongoing critique.

No you're not. How many times did you give me shit for writing about your blog at my place?

9) I value loyalty.

And I'm no one's lap dog. I value loyalty to my principles - not from anyone else, but from me.

“Loyalty is a fine quality, but in excess it fills political graveyards.”
- Neil Kinnock

Why, in your estimation, do I owe you loyalty? And what exactly does loyalty mean to you? Obedience? Having unquestioned support? What?

BooMan said...

http://www2.boomantribune.com/?op=search&offset=0&old_count=30&type=comment_by&topic=§ion=&string=abcd1234&search=Search&search_archive=yes&count=30

Please. Supersoling. Peruse those comments for a while and tell me you are not wrong beyond all reason.

Raging Hippie said...

Might I offer the perspective of a less frequent poster who no longer posts on BT?

I received some of the Tracy-hate as well, which awakened me to the fact that, under the "Don't be a prick" rule, some pricks were more equal than others. But I'm used to standing on the outside of cliques looking in, so that wasn't such a big deal.

What sent me out the door was the nature of my personal emotional/intellectual struggle, as I try to find a way to live in this world without doing more harm than good. Jettisoning the make-believe barriers that people erect to make themselves feel special is a big part of that struggle. Nationalism is one of those barriers, and it's a deadly one.

And so it reached the point where the BT atmosphere became poisonous to me. Anytime a serious discussion was opened about the role nationalism plays in screwing up the world, you could count on Tracy or MWAC or some other screamer to bust in and trash the place. And even apart from them, any attempt to dispassionately discuss the role "America" plays as a corporate entity was bound to degenerate into a pissing match and name-calling contest.

I suppose it comes down to how one defines "politics" for purposes of a political blog. Many (BT among them) view "progressive" politics as purely partisan and take the naive view that the world will be roses and puppies if more Democrats than Republicans get elected. Some view politics more broadly, as extending down to the roots of human interactions with each other and the planet. I'm in that camp.

supersoling said...

I don't get it Booman.
I said in my first comment to you that I didn't disagree with you banning her. In other words, I agree with you that there was a problem, backed up by the my first comment that you linked to. She and I were talking about it. I told her I recognized a pattern. She admitted to that. So what's beyond all reason? She didn't handle the whole deal very well at all. Neither did whoever it was (you or Susan) that told her she needed her head examined. On the other hand, Brinn revealing CG's real name was out of line too. But I still say she didn't blow up your whole blog the way Tracy and to a lesser extent, SallyCat did.

I think I've been pretty reasonable about all of it all along. And I think your friendship with Tracy either clouded your ability to be fair, or it put you in an untenable position and because of that position you tried to stick it out with her, to the detriment of everyone else who saw what happened. I think it's the latter.

BooMan said...

My relationship with Tracy clouded my ability to be fair?

Why?

Did my relationship with Brinnainne cloud my ability to be fair? She attacked me and Susan for months, flaming thread after thread. Why didn't I ban her? Because she was acting out of character. She had been a member for a year. Many of you had met her in real life and cared about her. Same as Tracy. I did nothing different.

The only difference was that Tracy wasn't attacking me, but ductape and his sympathizers.

Then I have catnip saying that I took Tracy's side. That's ridiculous. If anything, I symapthized with her argument more than I sympathized with ductape's argument. I didn't take sides. I told her to cool it, take a break from blogging, to apologize, and finally, I accepted her decision to leave. How many of you did I reprimand?

This is total revisionist history.

YOu know another thing? I went over and looked at ductape's thread a MLW where he said "we are all hizbollah". You know who I saw posting in that thread? A who's who of the worst of the worst. Donkeytale, Stu Piddy, StarkRavingLunaticRadical. All three banned from BT for various reasons. All three busily destroying the community over at MLW.

I know you are not naive Super. When the same people move from orange, to blue, to green, to maroon, and each time they cause disruption, get banned and take a portion of the community with them, then it is no accident. It isn't the fault of people as different as me, Maryscott, Chris Bowers, and Markos.

And let me ask you one last question. How do you think "We are all hizbollah" sells politically?

I'll answer it for you. If I went to RedState and posted "We are all the kkk" it would sell about the same. Which is to say, a few people would sympathize, but it would be nothing but harmful bullshit.

Anyone who posts shit like that doesn't care about what it does to the credibility of the community. And these are political communities that take actions and pressure congress. We all rely on advertising. Where does free speech begin and end and when does making an argument amount to sabotage?

I have been more willing to let members say whatever they want if they can back it up. Ductape couldn't back up his bullshit at the end. I challenged him and he just turned to crap arguments. And so I called him on his crap. I didn't ban him and I didn't take Tracy's side.

Lastly, if you started acting weird, I wouldn't ban you at the drop of a hat either. I'd try to resolve it privately.

catnip said...

Booman,
What you and many other critics of DTF's piece, 'We are all Hezbollah', fail to understand is that it was a a metaphor for resistance movements everywhere. Hezbollah took on the IDF and won. You don't have to agree with their ideas, their philosophy or their methods. The overall message was that of David v Goliath and that, sir, is far from being "sabotage".

Every single one of us here understands that you must be faithful to your advertisers so, in the end, that is what your diary/commenting policy ought to be about since that's what you hold to be more important than a free exchange of ideas on your blog. And you have every right to ban whoever you want who might cause you financial difficulties. Just be upfront about it and get it over with instead of allowing situations to brew for months on end. Is that too much to ask?

As for this question:
My relationship with Tracy clouded my ability to be fair?

You actually admitted that your friendships did just that. Do we have to search for your comments to prove it to you?

How many of you did I reprimand?

You did it by refusing to take a stand against the irrational bullshit that was being flung around. You think I'm disruptive? How many comments did I even contribute during the whole fiasco compared to those like Tracy who continually railed against the so-called "troop haters" and the "peace gone insane" movement?

Let's get real here.

supersoling said...

I just wrote out a long reply to Booman that went poof...

But basically it's the same as Catnip's above, at least regarding DTF's diaries. The reaction to them on American blogs says far more about the backwardness of American thinking than anything else. In the big picture, as far as I'm concerned, your blog's attractivness to advertisers is a miniscule concern compared to the death that's being brought down on the heads of innocent people by another set of American business interests and advertisers. Sorry, no disrespect for what you're trying to do with your blog, but your concern for advertisers just reinforces my growing feeling of being part of a smaller and smaller minority there and my sense that I don't belong there, no matter how hard it's been to stay away.

I agree with Catnip that you should just come out and be up front about your concerns about your advertisers Booman, because otherwise you'll continue to have these conflicts.

BooMan said...

Here is the disconnect.

You see Hizbollah as a viable resistance movement, an underdog, in the tradition of Che Guevera and maybe the Tamil Tigers.

While about 98% of America sees them as a terrorist orgaization whose tactics destroy whatever legitimacy their grieveance may have.

Now, I am not going to engage in the simplistic thinking that refuses to make a distinction between Hizbollah the national resistance movement and political party and Hizbollah the terrorist organization.

But you have to be realistic. The KKK has an expansive literature and it is not 100% bullshit. They make their appeals at least on a sliver of justified grievance. That is what extremist organizations do.

It is not that much of an exaggeration to say that saying "We are all the KKK" is similar to saying "We are all Hizbollah".

I once wrote some diaries at Daily Kos saying that the progressives agreed with bin-Laden. I did it to shock people. I understand the desire to rattle people out of their complacency and false assumptions.

But in the end, no one can tolerate having that shit go unchallenged. We do not agree with bin Laden, nor do we agree with raining rockets down on Israel or blowing up their buses.

We are definitely NOT all Hizbollah.

And if we say that we are, we can expect it to be received about the same way as saying we are all KKK.

Ever since I took on Mark Warner my advertising has dried up. Taking on Casey didn't help either.

So I don't need a lecture on tailoring my message to advertisers. I need people that will help make up the difference.

If you want a voice you need to realize that people like me need to eat and we can't eat if we take on the Establishment and don't get any backup from our members.

My point about ductape is that he doesn't give a shit about how what he does hurts the sites he likes to visit.

That is his right. It's also understandable that he gets jacked up at places that need to worry about such things.

I never jacked him up and even encouraged him to keep going. So, this is just another example of me taking criticism for things I did not do.

Nanette said...

BooMan...

While I realise that this:

The only difference was that Tracy wasn't attacking me, but ductape and his sympathizers.

is a convenient and no doubt comforting fiction, it is still a fiction. I think possibly in your (and others) minds, attempting to hide Tracy's behaviour under the cover of her combating "Ductape and his defenders" allows more room to excuse her actions and your inactions in a sort of "But Michael Moore is fat" type of way.

I am not sure it even matters anymore, as she is no longer posting there, but probably it does as you were also questioning where the "purge" thing came in. She didn't just attack Ductape's defenders. Or even Ductape, that I remember. Who she saved her greatest vitriol for were the peace activists... Boston Joe, Manny, Janet, supersoling and others. And also those who, out of concern and love/respect for her, attempted to come to a place of understanding or at least calm... scribe, shirl, diane, spiderleaf and so on.

Anyone really, who attempted to get her to calm down, or to do the "community" thing and try to assert some sort of corrective action (all the while, many of them, disclaiming any relationship or love for Ductape)... every one of them was cursed at, told they were lying, or were soldier spitters, anti american, and whatever other insane thing she was saying.

You say you value loyalty, but absolutely none was shown to those people, even those doing their darndest to overcome great reluctance and give out 1s and 0s to help control the implosion, with nothing at all from you. I have no clue about your lovelife or friendships, I don't consider any of that any of my business... but I wrote that diary about Anti American because of what was going on, the language used, and the main target of the attacks, which were the peace activists.

I don't participate there much anyway, but I wanted it clear if what seemed like a huge wrench to the right really was... where those who were anti war, were more to the left of center than some, were not into nationalism and militarism and so on were as unwelcome as it seemed.

Because of the rather insistent refusal to acknowledge that much of this has NOTHING to do with Ductape, I'm still waffling a little but am coming down on the side of if it walks like a duck and all that.

Hezbollah, by the way, would probably be better compared to groups such as the ANC, weathermen and so on, as opposed to the KKK, who were a group that was formed for the oppression of other, much weaker people rather than a resistance against other more powerful forces (whether one agrees with the goals, motivation, etc or not).

Anonymous said...

if you kill people it doesn't matter whether you do so to defend the stronger or the weaker.

It only matters whether you kill people out of necessity. The ANC could make that claim. The Weathermen could not.

The peace groups that you list outnumbered Tracy and her supporters. As far as I know, she had two supporters.

All I did was fail to intervene.

You say I showed no loyalty?

I would have had to ban tracy to show loyalty. When I banned Parker where was the loyalty? When I banned Brinnainne where was the loyalty?

I knew Tracy would probably leave on her own accord. What I didn't know is that people would leave becaue I didn't ban her.

Peace activists felt unwelcome? Why? Because two, maybe three members got upset?

They were vastly outnumbered and all left on theie own.

So, I should have kicked them out the door so you could feel welcome?

Why didn't I get the impression that bannings were so welcome before this?

Nanette said...

Far as I know, I've never called for banning anyone, including Tracy. I am anti banning, except for useless trolls.

The peace groups that you list outnumbered Tracy and her supporters. As far as I know, she had two supporters.

And your silence and implicit approval, which counted for a lot.

This was not a situation of attack/counterattack, everyone get your seconds and meet at dawn. Many of these people were going about their business, writing their diaries and making their comments, and were just attacked as a part of a scorched earth policy or something, who knows, with Tracy showing up to emote all over their diaries, spew vitriol etc.

Others were attacked for inquiring if something was wrong at home, or for even expressing understanding of the pressures she was/is under.

The lack of loyalty was not in not banning Tracy (or MWAC), in my opinion. It was in allowing this behaviour to go on and on and on and on and on, with no out front check of it, that I saw. I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, but no one else did either... so from the outside it seemed as if it all met your approval, and coming as it did (mostly) after the American Exceptionaism article and other stuff, people could be forgiven for wondering if all this... right wing nationalism, militarism, if you don't love the military shut up and so on was now policy.

Peace activists felt unwelcome? Why? Because two, maybe three members got upset?

I'm sorry... you must have either missed or just for some reason didn't see a great many things that went on. Why do you think Janet wrote that "if you want me to go somewhere else, I will" comment? Or why do you think Boston Joe is no longer around? Or why do you think for at least a couple of weeks Manny said little or nothing about the things he is doing to work for peace (on bootrib, he continued to do so on his site).

They were vastly outnumbered and all left on theie own.

So, I should have kicked them out the door so you could feel welcome?


If this is still addressing me, I don't know what that is about. I asked for no one to be kicked out of anywhere and I'm not sure who you are referring to as being vastly outnumbered. Regardless, none of it has anything to do with my feeling welcome - I mostly spend my time among the smaller group of personal blogs as that suits my nature better than the scoop type ones.

I don't actually think people left because you didn't ban Tracy. I think many left because, as I have been saying, they and their views (anti all wars, not supporters of the military, not supporters of US exceptionalism or nationalism, not US citizens at all) were made to feel unwelcome, whether it was that was actually the goal or not.

catnip said...

Did DTF even post "We are all Hezbollah" at BT?

And, btw, Booman here is a quote from that diary on his site that exemplifies the fact that it was a metaphor (which you don't seem to understand):

And not just any symbol. It is a noble symbol, a symbol of something very laudable, at least in the minds of the Majority World, namely Resistance against the tyranny of the US and its fat little pitbull there in the Levant, it is now a symbol that trumps and transcends the luxury concepts of politics or theology, it is now a symbol of the most primal and basic instinct we have: protecting our children, our future, preservation of our species from the fearsome beast, protecting our babies from the predator's talons, from the hungry tiger of the night, the horde of brutes from the tribe across the river, across the Blue Line.

When someone, somegang, anyone, anygang, rushes snarling into our cave, gaping maw set to devour our young, We are all Hezbollah.

And frankly, the Majority World has been in sore need of a little Hezbollah for quite some time.


And, regarding this:

My point about ductape is that he doesn't give a shit about how what he does hurts the sites he likes to visit.

The only reason you say that is because you don't actually know him. And he has apologized to you. You tried to browbeat me into accepting Tracy's apology. Why won't you accept his which he's repeated over and over and has demonstrated by leaving your site?

And since you're so opposed to critics of your site, have you bothered to go after Tracy for being 'disloyal' to you over at Daily Kos where she's posted repeated negative comments about BT? Or, is it just those of us here who give you heartburn?

booman said...

BostonJoe is not around for only one reason. His wife demanded he stop blogging.

Anonymous said...

BostonJoe is not around for only one reason. His wife demanded he stop blogging.

Militarytracy said...

I can't believe that any of this is still on going. It is beyond my understanding how all this could still be such an issue. Supersoling, anything that I have said at DKos hasn't had anything to do with Martin or his blog. I haven't said anything about Bootrib.....I have said plenty about "peace activist bloggers" who spread hatred of America's military. If you don't like what I have to say at DKos please feel free to speak right up over there. I am sorry that I became overly attached to Martin and Boomantrib. I believed in what Martin was doing and I still do. I feel that he is a measured educated honestly progressive voice. My husband has pointed out, and it is true, that I became a little bit attached to the goal that I wanted his blog to be successful. I have been housebound for about six years with my son and I have a ginormous entrepreneurial streak. I channeled a lot of that into Booman because I believed in the whole concept and I believed in the tenor and tone of the owner moderator. When everything went wild Martin emailed me that I was destroying community because I was so emotional about the military topic. I emailed him back that because this is my life and not just "ideas" I wasn't able to conduct myself as was needed when I was such a community minority at that time. I didn't want to harm Martin though or his means of living in that great neighborhood that he affords surrounded by all those crack houses! The final finishing blow though was when everything went FUCKED at work for my husband because I was stupid enough to offer up the Bootrib site and my stupid writings there as a means to involve the military in the online liberal blogging community.......what a failure of huge proportions that was and it was all mine when soldiers witnessed all that hatred toward them and two years in Iraq just wasn't enough of a sacrifice for you fucking assholes! Then a real flaming freak got ahold of all that hatred in all of those threads and he proceeded to use all of that to spread hatred of liberals around post and military friends of ours became fearful that our disabled son Joshua would be the brunt of all of this at school because I was stupid enough to involve myself with you guys. Great and just what everybody needs right now in the military and just what I needed and my family needed! Thanks everybody....please feel free to spread back slapping and high fiving around here in heaping piles because it solves everything when America's military families suffer in your book! It all runs completely counter productive though to my goals about a military with confident progressive voters in it though so while you are all high fiving over here please feel free to fuck off as well. I continue on my road without you freaks destroying community around me now and yippee! Martin was decent enough to remove my diaries except for the Crawford diaires so that no military persons could use my stupidity of my involvement with any of you against me or my family or use it to destroy military community. I owe him huge debt for that. He didnt' have to do that and my husband and I were so desperate to be disassociated with all of you we even tossed in meeting with JAG to have all my diaries removed, not that that would have done anything. Martin was decent enough to take them down himself simply because it was what was best for me and my children! Another reason why I left Bootrib was because what was happening with my presence there was destructive to the blog atmosphere and ran completely counterproductive to all of my goals for the blog. I know how to fight and if I had really wanted to stay and fight I would have, but for what and it was only hurting something that I cared for dearly? I cannot for the life of me understand though how any of you here can be so selfish as to stomp through the blog communties that you do spreading shit and turbulence, and then be so proud of yourselves that you have to start a little blog about how shitty and turbulent you all are. And you guys spend your time here running around thumping each other on the back for being "troublemakers" and standing on all of your selfmade pedestals of sanctimonious turds and posing amongst each other for your next photo op. What a bunch of losers! Mary Scott and Martin dedicate untold hours to creating the spaces that you all are so proud and happy to shit all over. Shame on all of you buttheads over here and there isn't anything peaceful about any of you - you are all a bunch of liars! You have devolved into the Christian Right of the Left and everything you claim that you are about is not demonstrated in your daily actions or in your relationships with others. Mary Scott and Martin need to eat just like you and I do and shame shame shame shame shame on you little phsycho vandals living beyond all realities over here! Let me just close by already admitting that I am not as enlightened as all of you and I stand for everything that is evil and wrong in the world and if you could only just get rid of me everything would be perfect. Perhaps you could contract with Hezbollah and they send you all a nice sniper to remove me and then we can finally have World Peace because it is myself and my husband and family that stands between all of you and that reality. Don't bother replying because I won't be back...oh goodness, I'm so thoughtless because I forgot that you guys don't reply to anything for the benefit of anyone other than your own toddler natures and you and your huge readership over here must hear your own voices bleating out into toddler oblivion while you all thump each other on the back and pose on your pedestal piles of turds for whoever has camera duty today. Rock On

James said...

Talk about sanctimonious - MT just gave us the ideal definition w/her own writing.

catnip said...

Holy flipping crap. What a tantrum.

I were so desperate to be disassociated with all of you we even tossed in meeting with JAG to have all my diaries removed, not that that would have done anything. Martin was decent enough to take them down himself simply because it was what was best for me and my children!

Why didn't you delete your own diaries? Or did you just have to run to a JAG lawyer to create a big scene with someone?

Do you take any responsibility for anything you did or is it just everybody else's fault that you flew off the rails?

Supersoling, anything that I have said at DKos hasn't had anything to do with Martin or his blog. I haven't said anything about Bootrib.....

That, Tracy, is a flat out lie. Do I need to search dkos comments to prove that to you?

Oh, what's the flipping point?

If anyone ever wondered why we were concerned about you at BT, you've just answered that question in spades by that rant. No wonder no one could get through to you.

And are all of those people who are threatening your child aware of the gang of "military haters" you still hang out with at dkos? What a ridiculous excuse - that your son might actually be harmed. Using him to defend your raging behaviour and the fact that you chose to show those soldiers the BT blog. If anyone is responsible for any shit your husband might be in, it's you. Which part of that don't you get?

As for this insanity:

Perhaps you could contract with Hezbollah and they send you all a nice sniper to remove me and then we can finally have World Peace because it is myself and my husband and family that stands between all of you and that reality.

All I have to say is GO FUCK YOURSELF. I've had it with your delusions and bullshit.

I tried to be nice about it before when I suggested you need professional help because I understand what living with someone with PTSD is like, but I will not enable your denial and refusal to deal with it. The only threat you need to worry about is the one that you refuse to seek help for - the threat from your warped sense of reality. There IS help for that. Get it before it destroys you.

catnip said...

It took me 5 seconds to find this Tracy. Deny it again now. I dare you:

Don't say that over at Booman Tribune (4+ / 0-)

That really upsets them, but on the flipside they like to blame their volunteer soldiers for everything that has happened. Sort of makes me ill being a soldiers wife witnessing that sometimes.

In the Pajamahadeen I'm Scooby-Doo!

by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:55:52 PM PDT

catnip said...

And this totally contradicts what you wrote here in bold nonetheless. So take your martyr routine elsewhere. If there's one thing that drives me nuts, it's a hypocrite and you, my dear, have the market cornered on hypocrisy.

How stunningly pathetic.

supersoling said...

Funny how I've gotten kinda singled out here by Booman and Tracy. Why is that? Because I'm still reachable maybe? Don't know.

Tracy,
I'm still having difficulty feeling angry at you for the things you've written to and about me. You know very little about me and the internal conflicts I'm having as I try to fing a solid piece of ground to occupy that doesn't piss off one or the other set of people.I'm not anti-military. I never have been, despite the best efforts of my Mother's indoctrination process. But I am anti-this military now. It doesn't mean that I wish for them to be defeated, they already are. It doesn't mean that I wish them harm, I don't. Up until my last comment to you at BT, when I really lost my cool, I've had nothing but the highest respect for you. I still do. But my respect comes less from your place as a military wife, than it does from your place as a parent. That's what I've always respected most about you. That, and your fearlessness. I respected you so much that I was willing to give you tyhe benefit of the doubt when you first started going off on some of us because even if I couldn't fully understand how and why your life affects you like it does, it was nescesarry to give you the space to work it out, at least for a short time. Even, as it's pretty clear now, we disagree completely about a lot of things, I was still willing to give you that space out of respect. What became apparent was that the respect wasn't mutual. It never could've been. And your words here say it louder than anything. Freak, fucking asshole......whatever. You have nothing but contempt for me, where once I was a "warrior, born between wars" to you. I never was that. If I'm a warrior, it's as a Father. And this military is endangering my children, as it is yours. In a war like this, I will always side with the peacemakers. If that means I have to oppose people like you, that I once respected, then so be it. But I won't denigrate you, or your family, the way you have done it to me and others. There is a history of military service in my family. I AM very proud of that heritage, and I believe that those of them who fought AND died at the service of our country would understand and be proud of my small efforts to end this war. I'm content with that. Your railing at me and hurling insults will never change that truth for me.

scribe said...

It seems to work better for me when I focus on the "problem", rather than on "the "personalities" involved.

The "problem" that has led to so many leaving your site, Boo, seems to be a lack of effective conflict management. Regardless of the players, or the issues involved, civil discourse was allowed to devolve into a visciously hurtful attack/counterattack situation, that was allowed to go on far too long.

I honestly can't imagine how any community blog, open to all who wish to post, in times like this when there are so many hair trigger issues, will be able to avoid having this reepating dybamic occuring. I also can't imagine what it would take to come up with "effective" conflict management strategies that could bring eposodes like this to any mutually acceptable resolution, in this wide open faceless medium. (which is why no one could PAY me enough to run a big blog like Bootrib! )

It would be nice if we, as a speciea, were evolved enough to all regulate out own behavior well enough to stay together, but we just aren't there yet.

Which means any grouping is going to need a very strong, very consistent "leader" with a highly developed skill set for conflict resolution, an incredible capacity for objectivity, a set og clear, consistently enforced guidelines, who is ready to devote nearly 24/7 to monitoring/managing all communication that rolls through the door.

I admire the guts it takes for anyone to take on this huge task. And I am pretty sure I understand why most who DO take it on are under age 50 or so!

Perhaps part of the purpose of all of this is for experimenting/learning how we, as humans, CAN find our way to the next level of being able to communicate across the chasms. One can hope.

brinn5etc said...

I do remember being reprimanded for "hijacking" an open thread or two -- until then I hadn't realized that was possible!
lol
I also recall, attempting to raise the issue of double standards again and again (perhaps too many times) as new examples of the same damned thing came up....but I have since learned that unless I want to start my own blog, I need to STFU about management issues -- even if I had taken the time to contribute to the "community" in other ways, my input on that wasn't wanted.

The catalyst for my "transformation" (as if) into the angry spiteful evil w[b]itch was Susan's out and out lies about how many people had tried to reason with me through email (this never happened)and telling me to get mental help through a crisis hotline. That made me want "back" everything I had ever contributed to the community, because I felt used and abused -- sure you can contribute and help make the place what it is, but when it comes down to it -- fuck you it's my space and all of your contributions are mine too. That, I do not play.

As far as your "appeasement" of me BooMan, all I wanted was for you to listen and to see how either you were striving for community or you weren't -- either way was always fine with me, but I could never get you to say one way ot the other -- something MSOC has over you big time. I can respect where she stands, whether I agree with it or not, because she says so publically and honestly.

brinn5etc said...

Oh, and I have to add the "time outs" you gave (with nary an email or procedure in place) and the accusations of my searching the web for "defenders" just made me come back angrier and w[b]itchier...very forseeable really, if you had though in the least bit about conswquences and human nature before acting, but ah, well.

The whole CabinGirl thing was an accident and wrong of me, but by that time my intentions and motivations has been so well ASSumed and ossified by the PTB, that there was no going back. I did find it hilarious that people found my use of their names (not CG, but others like SN) as threatening -- big bad ole me, someone to lay down and be terrified of, no doubt.

Anyway, no more to say on this except it feels awfully damned good to have a place where I can say what I mean and mean what I say -- never have been good at eggshells, foo foo bunnies on their colored surfaces or not.

brinn5etc said...

hey! it worked....I think...

spiderleaf said...

Gawd. Tracy, seriously, you are delusional. You just make shit up and pass it for truth.

It's funny, but I'd be embarrassed too if I were you. You were the one who kept calling the troops murderers and saying people were spitting on them when, at least for myself, all I kept saying was "prove to me where I ever said that". Which of course you couldn't. Perhaps those are the sentiments you feel about the troops since you keep bringing all that up. You can't put words in peoples mouths and then call them hateful names because they won't own what you want them to. I really hope you aren't raising your children to think like that.

Booman, Tracy pissed all over everyone for weeks. Just as she does in that ridiculous comment above. She lies. She makes things up. She insults people. She calls people names. And so on.

That you did not adhere to the "don't be a prick" mandate of your own site (which btw, was what Bri was trying to tell you and Susan way back when... that you have double standards but refuse to acknowledge or articulate them), was my issue. That you defended Tracy and told us we "needed to see her POV" when we had said NOTHING that she attributed to us and in fact were repeatedly insulted by her was what wrecked the community. That is why I am no longer a regular participant there. Double standards and constantly having to "prove" that I never said what Tracy et al said I did. Who has time for that nonsense?

You didn't have to ban her but you could, and in my opinion, should, have given her a timeout and pulled her rating or posting ability.

Finally, "We are all Hezbollah" just like "You can't reason with Americans" were words that others (i.e. the woman in Lebanon) spoke. I suppose it's not a good idea to know on "liberal" blogs that the folks in Lebanon feel that they are all Hezbollah now? Doesn't that kinda need to be on our radar if we're going to help make this world a better place? I don't always agree with DTF but at least I actually read what he writes.

As for Boston Joe - if he was feeling what I was feeling after the attacks by Tracy, Egarwaen and MWAC then no wonder his wife demanded he stop blogging. I can only imagine how he would feel when he puts himself on the line each day for peace and is spit on and called names by his so-called allies.

Booman said...

While I don't want to associate myself with Tracy's remarks I do appreciate her setting the record straight with regard to what I did.

I did tell her that she was destroying the community with her actions and that it was hurting me financially. She actually cared about that. So far, all I have received here is contempt for the very idea that I get ad revenues at all.

I would think that the fact that Booman Tribune allows for conspiracy talk, that it is forthrightly opposed to the DCCC and the DSCC and the DLC would make people appreciative. Maybe people would take care to both help me survive the hit in advertising that causes and protective of the site against diaries that will scare both politicians and advertisers away.

But actually, I do not sense any sensitivity to that at all. Rather, the only issue is whether or not we should give total free reign to the most extreme language, such as 'we are all hizbollah' or that Americans will gladly slaughter their own children on the command of George W. Bush.

I never censored that talk, and I didn't agree with how Tracy, Sally and MWAC reacted to it. But it would be nice if there was any recognition at all that the site is a kind of lobbying group that has influence. And if you destroy our reputation, then you harm the whole community.

I don't protect my brand the way Markos does. I don't ban people for making impolitic remarks. But at the same time, people that abuse that trust and are indifferent to the mission of the site should rightfully be taken to task by the members.

How to do this without it becoming some kind of little orange site is a troublesome problem.

But if you want an independent place to voice your opinions you need to be cognizant that it needs loyalty and funding.

It's an unpleasant reality.

BTW, last month I was paid under $200 because some of the ad buyers didn't pay up. My server costs and internet costs are almost $200. So I came close to losing money last month. Not that I get the sense anyone really cares. It's much more important to hammer me for not banning Tracy.

Sorry for this rant, but I find it very frustrating to see people react this way after all I have tried to do.

spiderleaf said...

Booman.

I am extremely offended by your rant.

Firstly - we ALL care about the well being of your site. We give you our intellectual property to use and our page views each and every day. It's high bullshit to claim that only Tracy cares about your well being.

Secondly - Remember this diary?

Or how about all the time myself and CookTing took to talk to you about options for generating revenue when you asked. In fact, you never responded to us once to say thank you for sharing information that I charge my clients $100/hour for. But I gave to you for free.

So please. Spare me.

brinn5etc said...

At this point in time, BooMan, I have to say you are right, I do not care. There was a time that I did, and a time that I posted with the motivation of making the place a better and more productive space...I have been banned now for over 6 months, and you're right, I don't care.

I wish you the best of luck but whining about how no one is appreciative of what you do at this point is laughable to me.

catnip said...

So far, all I have received here is contempt for the very idea that I get ad revenues at all.

Pardon me? Who has said anything of the kind?

Like I said: it's your site. It's your financial situation. And if some members cause you financial stress, it's your responsibility to deal with them. Do you think it's the task of people who write things there to couch their words around how it will affect your revenue stream? If that stream is what you're concerned about, why not set up moderation so you can have complete editorial control? Why not get a statement from your advertisers about what is acceptable to them as far as what the limits of free speech are so your members can work with that? How many advertisers have even complained to you? Did you lose that $200 because they were simply deliquent in their payment or did they hold back because they opposed the content on your site? Have you sent a collection agency after them? What do your advertising contracts look like?

Simply saying that such and such offends your advertisers does nothing to provide clear guidance about what they expect from your site. Some of your advertisers also have their ads on thousands of other blogs. Do they try to regulate what's written on them too? Do they hold back payment if Blogger B writes something that offends them? Does dkos, MLW or whoever else have the same problems with these advertisers? Why not get advertisers who are actually in favour of free speech?

Or is this about advertisers at all?

Maybe you need to expand your 'don't be a prick statement' if you want people to comply beyond that consideration.

BooMan said...

Catnip-

your response says it all.

I don't think you could be more of a dumbass if you tried. I don't blame anyone else here for your remarks. You own them and they do not reflect on anyone else. But I wouldn't want to be associated with you.

I honestly can't believe the dumbassery of your series of questions. How can you be so cluelees??

BooMan said...

No spider, you DON'T care and you couldn't be any more clear about it.

If you DID care you wouldn't be offended by my pointing out that no one wants to sponsor a site that recommends diaries saying 'we are all hizbollah'.

Do you want to know why MLW went nuts? It's because they realize that allowing that type of commentary to go unchallenged will mean the whole site can be marginalized.

Fox News picks that up and tags MSOC with it, and she won't see another dime from any candidates or the party.

It's up to people like ductape not to subject the community to that threat in the first place. If he would use a little common sense it wouldn't wind up destroying MLW's community. But too many people want to defend the free flow of ideas as the highest ideal.

Guess what? These communities cannot survive without advertising.

I haven't received a dime from the party or any candidates since I took on Warner at Yearly Kos. But at least I made that decision myself.

If you can't understand that there are ways to make your point about America's role in the world without destroying the community within which you do it, then I don't know what to tell you.

I never censored anything, however, so don't blame me for my policies. If I am guilty of anything here it is not censoring someone.

NLinStPaul said...

I have been silent here, but I have one question for you Booman - and its important to me, so I hope you take it with the seriousness with which it is offered:

Are you saying that you lost ad revenue because of the writing of people here at this site? Is that just Ductape, or does it include catnip, spiderleaf, james and supersoling? Or did the loss of revenue come from Tracy, SallyCat and MWOC and their anger? I seriously don't know what you are pointing to in terms of the reason. Seems there are still folks at BT who are writing pretty anti-establishment stuff. Sirroco and populist come to mind. Does their writing negatively affect ad revenue. I just don't get how this works. Therefore, some of catnips questions made sense to me.

Militarytracy said...

Sort of idiotic to even bother here but I do want to apologize to Martin. The best thing that has happened to me in all of this is that I stopped caring about blogging. Cyberspace isn't real life space and real life space is how people are really postively affected in my opinion these days. I'm sorry to Martin that I did once make a comment at DKos where I did use the word Bootrib. I think that was one of my first comments that I had made there after realizing that DKos was going to be Blog Homebase for the liberal military. I was commenting on some of the personalities inhabiting the Bootrib blog space and I didn't mean to imply that any of it had anything to do with Martin. In Cyberspace what I wrote could be construed though to mean that I did and for that I'm sorry. If I find that I have affected anyone's opinion about Martin by what I have commented at DKos I will immediately clear it up. As to Catnip's comment about deleting my own diaries, you can't delete your own diary after it has been on Bootrib for longer than 30 days now. I did have to have Martin do that for me. As to how delusional I am (because we all are a little, I have always been fascinated by psychology and took a few psych courses in college), I would think it would be a little telling that every place you guys go with your collective wisdom you eventually get told to go fuck yourselves and you always end up off in some little corner in a group huddle. It's just my opine, but your group history speaks volumes about delusional. Supersoling, I don't care one iota what you think of me now or ever again. If I ever speak to you again in this lifetime it will be too soon after how my association with you has affected my life. PLEASE DON'T LIKE ME AND FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T HAVE ANY RESPECT FOR ME because it is doing me and my family a huge favor these days. It isn't the military that is destructive, it is this administrations policies and abuses of our military that are destructive. It is your job as a civilian to straighten the administration out not the soldiers, that is how that civic paradigm works. I no longer miss your voice in my life. I have gotten over it I suppose and the abuses that your military and your soldiers are now attempting to survive and heal from are horrific and it is just best to avoid you as we tend to the business at hand and what is needed.

brinn5etc said...

supersoling:

((hugs))

that is all.

spiderleaf said...

Yeah, I don't care. That's why I stayed and wrote so many diaries over the last year and a half that contributed to the site in many different ways. I don't care now that you refuse to see our point of view (which is quite varied from person to person here) and keep mischaracterizing what my actual position is and has been.

Why should I care if you have such low regard for me and my contributions to the site and the community? I give you real examples of how I've cared for your website and you completely dismiss it. Lovely. Thank you.

I DO SEE that having a diary like Ductape's is not what you'd want on your site. I can understand that and appreciate it. I have no problem with it actually if that is made explicit in the rules. You say you value an international/ world perspective and hence the world rec list, yet how are we, non-americans supposed to figure out what we can and cannot say that may or may not affect your ad revenues or the larger issues of the US media, etc. without it being spelled out? Once DTF figured out the rules he stopped posting on BooTrib. What more do you want him to do?

I personally do not have guest posters or run a community blog precisely because it's my identity on the thoughts and I am only comfortable owning what I say, not anyone else. I wouldn't have posted what DTF did and I didn't particularly care for his statements about remote control torture in his "You can't reason with American's" diary and would have told him that had Sally and Tracy not become abusive to the community. That being said, on my own site, I don't delete any comments, even ones that have been right wing and trollish. They own their words, not me. But that may be a problem on a community blog and I don't envy your dilemma.

But this has never been about DTF to me. It's been about the way completely unrelated friends of mine have been treated, and have allowed to be treated. People like BostonJoe, Janet, Scribe, Manny, Super, Raging Hippie, dove, etc. Let alone me. Anyone who defended peace.

Vicious names were called. False and potentially harmful accusations were made. It was truly ugly. And you continue to defend the actions of those spewing vile garbage and denigrate those who had words put in their mouths. I never said ban her, but the community was telling you over and over that Tracy was disruptive and damaging. She needed a time out and you needed to stop spreading her false memes. I can send you the diary she deleted where she mischaracterized and lied about what people said in the comment she was responding to. It was disgusting. And guess what, DTF wasn't participating.

I'm really disappointed Boo that you won't consider our side of the equation.

spiderleaf said...

Umm Tracy... I've never been kicked off a site or driven into a corner. Never been banned, still talk to dkos people and to BT people and to LSF people and to MLW people and to this group of people.

Man you are a jerk.

scribe said...

Could it be possible that community blogs like yours, Boo, are trying to be too many things to too many people at the same time?

a) An open forum for polical debate
b) AND a blog with the goal of being a lobbying influence for a polital party
c) AND a source of income for the owner
d) AND a warm, welcoming place of commmunity building?

Cripes, Boo. That is one formidable collection of differing goals, if you ask me, which you didn't!

And a near perfect set up for the kind of confusion/conflict amidst readers/contributers that can lead to messes just like this onen seems to me!

Raging Hippie said...

"Communities"? Hardly. A blog that's operated in order to earn advertising revenue for the site owner is a for-profit online magazine. Rather than whining about how contributors--who are not paid for their writings--fail to self-censor in order to meet some vague notion of what is advertiser-acceptable, why not set out specific standards for submissions, then screen those submissions prior to publication in order to ensure acceptability of content?

scribe said...

Tracy, your words to Super sound to me like the words of a small, mean and viscious human being. I do not wish to see you as such, but you are making it next t impossible not to.

If you abhor blogging and all of us so much, what the HELL are you doing here?

DuctapeFatwa said...

ROFLMAO I "blog" to express my opinion. I do not care whether this or that blog administrator receives revenue from corporations or politicians.

And I will venture to state that there are many people who disagree with me on almost every other subject on earth that will agree with that.

It is absurd! If what you wish is to deliver a product to these entities, then use "ghost bloggers" and do not open the site to "real people" whose reason for being there is not in order to increase revenue that accrues to you.

If it is any comfort, there is no American blog, yours or MyLeftWing or RaptureReady or any of the rest of them, that is in any danger of being "marginalized."

I am flattered that you would consider me a man of such power, but surely if anything I have brought a great benefit to these websites, so that anyone who may have thought otherwise can see that the vast majority of the participants are "on message," and those divisions that anyone may have thought might exist between, say, Israpundit and MyLeftWing were mere mirages. They should thank me for showing them how united they really all are.

I admit I thought there might be some significant ideological differences, but when I am proven wrong, I do not mind saying so, and in that particular case I was wrong.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely no reason for any American corporation or politician to worry that any sort of Reform Movement might spring up from these American blogs.

Any doubt that anyone might have ever had that America speaks with one voice will have been set to rest the past few weeks, and I would imagine that your corporations and your politicians will wish to reward you richly for your unswavering loyalty to them now that you have demonstrated your unity.

brinn5etc said...

spidey -- I would be most intersted in seeing that diary -- there may be perhaps some stuff to incorporate into the inaguaral post to MoBettaMeta -- I am sure I will piss everyone off with it and would like to leave no one out just 'cause I haven't seen it!
;)

brinn5etc said...

PS -- tracy, I have not been told to "go fuck myself" anywhere else than BMT, and that was waaay before you went on whatever tirade you are re-creating here....

As BooMan said, when I was banned "nobody cared" (except for the people who did). I thought I had friends there too -- I have since learned better about who to go to the mat for and who can "go fuck themselves".

DuctapeFatwa said...

And spiderleaf, you are inaccurate, I did not cease visiting the site because I figured out any rules. I ceased visiting it, and a number of other websites because they are simply not the kind of sites I wish to visit, or have any business visiting.

You are correct, however, that my opinion is not desired on these sites, and often not even because of the opinion, but because it is mine. That is not a healthy environment for open exchange of ideas and information, and indeed, as we are discussing now, open exchange of ideas is not what is desired.

On more than one occasion, I have seen others express essentially the same view that I have expressed, and a number of people agree with it!

So you can see from that the problem is not me, it is those American posters who agree with each other on views that the corporations and politicians do not like. It is not one lone non-American! It is not as if the site is suddenly invaded with black flag-toting hordes from the east! And yes, most people in the east have more sense, and as I said to an internet friend the other day, the only two eastern people I am aware of on the American blog scene are myself and Angry Arab, who is extremely pro-western, and we do not know each other.

Americans have no idea how they are perceived outside the US, and I don't think most want to know, or even need to know. At this point, I would say do what gives you comfort. If that is Wolf and Lou, or if that is Bill and Shep, or if you prefer it all straight from the politicians themselves. Send money to your politicians. Or do some shopping. Do not trivialize the importance of comfort, especially when it is all you have.

Nanette said...

Well, I guess I'm happy that Tracy's meltdown(s) here confirm (at least in my mind) that it's not about Ductape. It never was about Ductape, for Tracy or Sallycat, he was just a convenient post to hang it all on, because Michael Moore is fat. It is, and has been, about people who oppose the US military, oppose imperialism and exceptionalism and who work for peace - without the proper deference to the military. Working for "peace" while promoting war and warriors is perfectly okay though.

BooMan, while I've never been clear on how the dkos satellite blogs thought they were going to make money by basically being kinder, gentler clones of kos, I and many others here put in lots of time from the beginning to try and make the site a success. I think the practice of working around your readership instead of with them is an odd one, but we were willing to work with it to the best of our abilities and talents. I think it is unfair of you to completely ignore those efforts.

I don't know how blog ads work so I can't comment on your reduced revenue, or why politicians themselves (especially those who might want to challenge Warner and whoever else) would decide not to advertise because you talked about him and not even all that negatively... it seems to me that that sort of ax suspended over the head would be extremely limiting for a political site. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though...if I were you I'd search for a deeper reason, but as I said, I don't know how blog ads work.

As for MSOC...she's already appeared in the WaPo as the madwoman of the blogs, written paeans to MF'er, declared that she will accept no money from politicians, and expressed hatred for Democrats. With all that, I can't imagine that having a user submitted diary titled "We are all Hezbollah", which was not only a quote from a newspaper story, but was not at all about Hezbollah would ruin her site.

spiderleaf said...

Sorry DTF. "Rules" was just a quick soundbyte to encapsulate the fact that you "got" that you were not welcome to participate for all the reasons you mention.

I apologize for my sloppy wording.

DuctapeFatwa said...

No need to apologize, spider, what I am saying is that getting that I was not welcome is not what stopped me. I posted on there despite that.

I stopped because those websites became unwelcome in my browser.

DuctapeFatwa said...

Nanette, I think you just outed yourself as having violated the patriot act by actually having read the piece. If I were you I would lay low and avoid sporting anything resembling a Guy Fawkes mask in public for a while. ;)

spiderleaf said...

so basically you're just a stubborn old geezer whose browser finally had a meltdown. ;)

DuctapeFatwa said...

I realized that I had failed to be selective enough in the type of websites I visit. Unwelcome in my browser is not the same thing as browser meltdown. I have that every twenty minutes or so. I just reboot. Unwelcome in my browser is not something I reboot. :D

DuctapeFatwa said...

But you got the old geezer part exactly right. A grizzled old terrorist, to be exact!

supersoling said...

Tracy,
I will always care about you. My instincts aren't so far off that I would have come to feel the way I did about you last year and part of this year by being naive about people. Besides, you're not that good of an actress to begin with. I don't even fully believe what you are writing here. If you didn't care at all, you wouldn't be here acting out the way you are. I can recall being in Crawford with Adastra, trying to find a way to see you or get in touch with you because we found a friend of Cindy's who told us she knew of some people who might be able to help with your husband's possible redeployment, that he and you both, needed to be with your son. Unlike you, I will never, I couldn't, ever say that you didn't deserve those efforts. You do. Your son did, and your husband did. Your continued bashing of me will never change those feelings that I had for you then or the continued best wishes that I have for you now.

Open question to all...
who here has been banned from any of these blogs we're talking about, other than Brinn? I'd like to know where all these places are that Tracy says we've all been told to fuck off from.

James said...

I haven't been banned from any of the above blogs. Some I frequent more than others, but that's merely a matter of personal choice.

Nanette said...

lol Ductape, yep that's a bad habit of mine, actually reading stuff.

supersoling, as far as I know I've never been banned from any of these or any other blogs. And while many people may have dearly wanted to tell me in no uncertain terms to remove myself, so far no one has.

raging hippie,

"Communities"? Hardly. A blog that's operated in order to earn advertising revenue for the site owner is a for-profit online magazine.

I agree... as someone once termed it, a "diary pyramid scheme", and one which most are willing participants willing to give of their time and efforts, caring little that it's the blog proprietors that are compensated for it (supposedly).

Also the rest of your post makes good sense. Might as well at least just have it all out in the open, front and center.

James said...

I personally like raging hippie's idea: relabel the community blog as an internet newsmagazine, have some "front page" news and opinion, some guest columns (formerly "diaries") that have been sufficiently vetted for content, and some letters to the editor (formerly known as comments) just to keep up the appearance of being fair and balanced.

Failing that, perhaps a clear policy of what is considered "PC" and "not PC" as well as a clear policy of the consequences for failing to be sufficiently "PC" would suffice. Those who don't do "PC" would probably then weed themselves out for the most part. The advertisers, I presume, would be quite pleased.

Militarytracy said...

Scribe,

Never said that I abhor blogging (those are your words), just don't give it as much time or say in my life these days like I used to. Don't take it as seriously as I used to either. Another thing I learned taking psych courses is that 20% of the population will not like me or you no matter what we do. That is a fact of real life and I guess you guys are part of my 20%, I can deal with that. The Tracy meltdowns though Nanette are only a small portion of the history of your collective group wisdom and blog community destruction. Your group history here is that you guys are all about creating meltdowns and destroying community, then you find yourselves mostly only able to converse openly and honestly with each other and marginalized among the working substantial majority. That seems to make you all angry and then you chant together that it is everybody else's fault that you are here and has nothing to do with having a self sabotage syndrome or anything like that. Bootrib did have a mission statement of sorts. I read it the first day I joined and I thought to myself, "Gee, that's my mission too!" When I found myself being counterproductive to that mission I excused myself from the discussion table. Still believe in Martin though and as some one who lives a real life with real bills in it and all that sort of real life and the real world stuff, I cherish that he took on the Mark Warner issue. He stuck with his mission statement and he stood by me when he did it because I joined his blog based on that mission statement and devoted my time there focusing on that mission. He stood his ground and he took a financial hit challenging the status quo, but instead of all of us being on mission with him (because the blog mission wasn't a mystery or anything) and creating support for REAL PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES AND GETTING THEM ELECTED we instead decided to focus on destroying the Booman Tribune blog community. JUST LOVELY DONTCHA THINK? We should all be so proud of ourselves just running around blowing shit up because we are angry. Look at all we have accomplished! Aren't there any terrorist blogs you guys could join and participate in that share your goals? Aren't you all getting tired of pissing on everybody's carpets, can't you all mature a little and get your needs met in positive ways and acquire some potty training? As to Super wanting to know what blogs you guys have been banned from, once again never said anything about banning but once again noticing that you all defiled a blog space and stirred up a whole bunch of shit and now you are all group huddled in Cyberspace again with one or two new troublemaker members here and there but never anything substantial that could make any improvements in the political and thereby the military situation that the United States finds itself in right now. Just a bunch of stirred people and trouble caused and real progress in the real world undermined is all you guys have to show for your efforts...very toddlerish in my book and I hope someday you can grow beyond this behavior. It could be possibly entertaining for me watching all of this if I didn't have any notion of what blog owners have dedicated and gone through setting up their sites and those spaces. Rock On Terrorists, here's to making the world a better place in the real world and in real life for everybody.

James said...

Do you know how sanctimonious the "I have a real life with real bill, etc." sounds? Well, duh, guess what - so do I. So do the very peeps you've chosen to trash. And yet clearly you just can't seem to get enough of us. I wonder what your psychology courses would say about that.

Militarytracy said...

James,

I haven't done anything though to destroy their abilities to pay their bills or shit all over what they dedicate all of their waking hours to in this life. I wouldn't do that. That is what you all have participated in though at Booman Tribune and MLW and to refuse to acknowledge that you guys show up there and proceed to stir shit and cause fights, then have participants leave, and then wander off to some other place and the whole thing starts all over again is pathetic. I haven't had anything to say to any of you for weeks now, haven't cared where you have been or what you were all stirring up at all, a friend witnessed all this going on and knew my whole Booman Tribune story and pointed out all this garbage and I felt it was time to set the record straight on everything and I knew that Martin wouldn't do it because that would require that he give out details about my personal life and he just isn't that kind of person. He would rather just let you all poop on his rugs then break with his own rules of self conduct and the standards he lives by. I needed to set the record straight because who I am demanded that rather than witness all this doodoo. After doing that I discovered that I also needed to apologize to Martin over my DKos use of Bootrib on one of my comments. Can't believe though that you guys are still talking about me after weeks and can't believe that some members are collecting all of my comments at DKos. What do you suppose my psych courses would say about all that James?

supersoling said...

Dang,
this is getting better and better.

If I wanted to belong to terrorist blogs I'd join Freerepublic or...maybe AOL chat. Or better yet, the RNC page. My citizenship in this country makes me affiliated with terrorists. The world's biggest terrorists. That endangers me and my kids. The same as the actions of this military are endangering me and my kids.

James said...

"I haven't done anything though to destroy their abilities to pay their bills or shit all over what they dedicate all of their waking hours to in this life. I wouldn't do that."

And yet that was precisely what you did during your last few weeks at BMT. Perhaps you can't see that, but that was what jumped out at me.

Funny thing is, there are still sufficient numbers of good folks who put up diaries of under-reported stories, of activism opportunities (both within and independent of the Democrat party) and so on. There is plenty there that is quite positive if you're willing to look. I also suspect that these same folks you label "terrorists" do to varying degrees reinforce that positive behavior. Whether recommending some excellent diaries by Manito or Janet "helps" Martin's bank account I do not know (hopefully the answer is yes) - I do know that what those cats do is truly progressive in every sense of the word.

supersoling said...

The creation of this blog Tracy, was to do the ranting here. By doing it here, it's removed from BT, MLW, dKos and other places. The only carpet we're shitting on is our own. Booman might think about thanking us for removing the ranting from his place. But then again, he's the one who linked to it on his front page. before that it was pretty inocuous.

spiderleaf said...

Actually Tracy the majority of us continue to have our diaries recommended wherever we post and receive quite a few 4's for our comments at those sites.

In fact, I'd wager I've done more for dkos than you ever have. I recall a certain timeline about an outed CIA officer that was FP'd there and then incorporated into the dkosopedia which Booman continues to quote from. But right, me caring enough about the outing of an agent from an organization that is about as far from my values as possible makes me a terrorist supporter. You really live in your own fantasy world don't you?

And hon, my story "The Pentagon 'hearts' your kids" was picked up by the Project on Defense Alternatives. Hardly seems we're talking about the same spiderleaf here doesn't it?

So what are you doing of value other than ranting incoherently on blogs about your fantasy world?

brinn5etc said...

er....

That is what you all have participated in though at Booman Tribune and MLW and to refuse to acknowledge that you guys show up there and proceed to stir shit and cause fights, then have participants leave, and then wander off to some other place and the whole thing starts all over again is pathetic

huh?

ya know, just for shits and giggles, after reading your rants here in this thread I went out and did some looking...

Tracy it seems that YOU have gone hither and yon with you very own user name and rantage...haven't found many of the others here in those wide-flug spaces.

I really do not understand you at all -- you say you (and your children!) are in danger from association on the web and yet you not only continue to post hither and yon, but under the same handle -- please!! Be careful!

spiderleaf said...

Oh and Tracy... the real progressives you speak of wouldn't tolerate your bullshit either. Come up to Canada or go to Europe to meet true left wingers. Or just get out of Alabama.

Personally I recommend doing both.

scribe said...

Gee, thanks, Tracy, for expanding my collection of "labels" bequeathed to me by those who consider themselves my superior, in one way or aother. I'd been wondering what I'd have to do to actually earn the label "terrorist", for it was one that had been missing to date.

Who knew all it would take was first offering understanding and support to a military wife, and later confronting some really nasty, name calling, flame throwing attacks she was making on a whole lot of folks, including me, who had done nothing to deserve such treatment.

Thank you for dropping by to bestow my new label on me, and to remind me of your innate superiority in all matters of mind and principle.

Will you be staying long?

James said...

What she said last nite:

Don't bother replying because I won't be back

It's not uncommon for the GBCW posts to drag on for a bit.

Militarytracy said...

Oh great Spiderleaf, Dkos is a very large community and if you left it it wouldn't be noticed. It isn't all about you. If I left it it wouldn't be noticed. It isn't all about me and I have noticed......I am only part of the story of America right now. If you hated and ranted and raved about DKos it wouldn't be noticed any longer than it took to get rid of you. Markos does not give a shit about people like you or people like me for that matter if we can't with the DKos program. He has a nice readership that stays very grounded on a lot of issues, one of them being military issues. Martin on the other hand does everything he can to not ban people for not getting with the Bootrib program and you all took that to mean "free place to shit" and as stated above you could all care less about how any of you impact his site with it's clearly stated mission, or anybody else's site for that matter. You have no blog though that you babysit night and day and devote all of your time and intellect and patience and money to to promote something far greater than yourself that really could make a difference though and make things better for many many others in the long run. All I have seen of you today is plain ole promoting of yourself, and precious little else while you list everything you ever did for Booman and now DailyKos too. I wouldn't lose any sleep waiting for Markos' thank you note honey. You are a superstar though Spidey! Nice blog everyone, glad to have seen it and all that, real life in the real world calls though.

James said...

"free place to shit"

Project much, eh, Tracy?

spiderleaf said...

Honey, I was only responding to the accusations you leveled at us as being told to fuck off at every blog we've ever been at. So I enlightened you as to my participation on the blogs. Nothing more. Once again you seem to create your own reality as it suits you.

I really could care less about dkos Tracy, that's why I left. I have no time for mysoginistic right wing ass-kissing operatives in my life. But you appear to have some hero worship issues darling.

When the Dems take away your reproductive rights, or those of your daughter you can send Markos a thank you note.

Glad to see you standing by your principles.

brinn5etc said...

blogs have little to nothing to do with "real life", though I guess it depends on how you define it.

Militarytracy said...

Sorry James,

I thought this was a place where you encouraged posters to rant and explore the dynamics of group think ignorance displayed by blog communities. So I was wrong? Sorry

spiderleaf said...

Oh, and Tracy, my list of my contributions to BooMan's blog were in direct response to his statement that we didn't care. It's only polite to respond.

brinn5etc said...

Tracy, please do!

rant and explore the dynamics of group think ignorance displayed by blog communities

haven't seen much of that second part though the ranting is most superb as far as it goes.

James said...

I thought that "real world" you were bragging about was calling you, Tracy. What happened?

supersoling said...

This is a place to rant. Rant on.... It's MoBettaMetta and some LessBetaMetta

James said...

Tracy's ranting has indeed been grade A performance art.

spiderleaf said...

I can't resist --

Tracy, as far as self promotion goes how many comments does it take at dkos that start out "as a military wife" to make the kool klub?

brinn5etc said...

catnip, I have been thinking about starting all of my posts with:

"as a person obviously in need of mental help...."

but I'd most likely need to cahnge my handle again!
;)

James said...

Of course in our New Age of Political Correctness, I suppose I should be starting all my posts with:

"As a terrorist..."

I bet that would be quite catchy. ;-)

spiderleaf said...

Hmm, I could start all of mine with...

"as a foreigner and therefore obviously a terrorist..."

Militarytracy said...

Spidey,

Sorry you haven't found anyplace "pure" enough for your taste and you doubt that anybody can come to terms with issues or learn anything new or change their minds about anything. They are forever branded and deformed in your eyes from the moment you have seen their flaw. Markos has been less than perfect about many things but sadly that is part of the human condition. He does seem to have taken a different stand on "women's issues" lately. I have forgiven him for being less than perfect about the past "women's issues thing" because we all learn about different things at different times in our lives....as my father always said also, he didn't want to be perfect because look at what we did to the last perfect guy. Spidey, nobody is perfect and we all do have to learn how to deal with that fact of being human. None of us are perfect, we all die, we all must eat or we will die, we all must have shelter from the cold or we die, wars kill, disease kills, terrorists kill, old age kills. Basic things like that Spidey no amount of bleating about how "pure" you are will ever change. Nobody was born with all the answers and sometimes being "pure" is just another form of poisoned.

CookTing said...

Tracy, I find it offensive that you would characterize your husband's participation -- on at least two separate occasions, no less -- in the invasion and occupation of Iraq as a sacrifice that me or anyone else should be grateful for. I thought you wanted us to feel sorry for your family's decision to forego making the sacrifice of resisting an obviously illegal action in order to care for your community and family. Those two notions seem to be at odds though.

brinn5etc said...

"bleating about how pure you are"???

er, what are you talking about Tracy?

Aren't we all evil incrante if we don't support the troops? Isn't that what you have been, er, bleating (this term means what exactly to you, btw?) about of late?

How is this all about spiderleaf for you?

spiderleaf said...

Tracy, I forgive when I see real change, not just empty platitudes. I was willing to accept your apology as I do believe people can change and grow. You then violated that.

I grow and change every day. But I'm also not naive.

supersoling said...

George layed out the ground rules pretty clearly when he said that if we weren't with them, we were with the terrorists. Hell, he's the Commander in Chief. Who am I to disobey orders? It's risky business, this terrorist appeasement stuff.

brinn5etc said...

Tracy -- are you the same person who sat in my house last year? Who talked with me, with my family? With the IVAWs? Who stood in the slogifying heat an humidity in Crawford?

If you are, I wonder at what has happened to/with you since then, and look at the pics and wish she were here....

James said...

cookting, I assure you that what happened in the process of invading Iraq was for the Iraqis' own good, as well as our own good here in America. I also can assure you that when it becomes necessary to invade Canada as part of the Glorious Crusade on Terror that all the death and destruction will be for your own good, and our own good - we need those oil sands, dammit, as God has clearly stated.

brinn5etc said...

heh. super, yeah, then there's that!

"{not with you, w, so that makes me a....."

fill in the fucking blank with the "evil other de jour"

brinn5etc said...

lmao! JB! that is just too funny.

Most Americans have no earthly clue that we import the largest percentage of our oil from Canada....

Most Americans just have no earthly clue, outside of "you with us or agin' us"

fucking pathetic.

Raging Hippie said...

Looks like I'm a terrorist with a law degree. I'm a weapon of mass statutory construction.

brinn5etc said...

go hippie go!!

that was fucking funny!

spiderleaf said...

Bri, I sent you the deleted diary comment thread per your request...

supersoling said...

Wait!
Stay Hippie, Stay!! :o)

Raging Hippie said...

LOL, Brinn and Super!

spiderleaf said...

James, I think I read God's statement about that a few weeks ago in USA Today. Although it was atributed to "unnamed sources", but if that's good enough for invading a country, it's good enough for me.

Meh, maybe i'll go hide in the arctic with the polar bears. Oh wait, they're all eating each other now, that doesn't sound like fun. Perhaps Anarctica would be a more viable option? Do Penguins attack?

James said...

As I recall from a children's movie, Penguins are plotting world dominion.

Raging Hippie said...

As I recall, penguins left sitting on the telly have been known to explode.

Terrorists!

James said...

Filmed footage of exploding penguins. It is terrifying. The horror. The horror.

catnip said...

As a "terrorist" "dumbass" who's been busy today outing a Pentagon propaganda wanker over at my blog who wants everybody to cheer for the military despite its rampant sexual abuse, all I can say is that some of the verbal diarrhea expressed here calls for some kaopectate - stat.

So I see I never actually did get an answer from Booman about his ad revenue dilemma. That's unhelpful. I didn't think I had asked any particularly "dumbass" questions. Oh well, "dumbass" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

I have e-mailed MSOC to see how member diaries affect her ad revenue. I don't think she'll call me a "dumbass" for asking.

And no one has yet answered this question: was 'We are all Hezbollah" even posted at BT?

spiderleaf said...

Nope, just at MLW where it turned into a flamefest.

catnip said...

rofl That penquin clip was hilarious, James. Thanks.

Thanks for the response, spidey. Why does Booman keep bringing it up then if it wasn't even posted on his blog?

catnip said...

One more thing...

Tracy,
You call us terrorists and write: Perhaps you could contract with Hezbollah and they send you all a nice sniper to remove me and then we can finally have World Peace because it is myself and my husband and family that stands between all of you and that reality. 11:43pm.

Am I supposed to take anything you say seriously after that? Do you even understand the depth of paranoia and hatred that represents? Don't answer that. You obviously don't.

Seek help or continue to live in misery. Your choice.

BooMan said...

Wow. Seventy comments since I last checked this thread.

My ad revenue has been adversely affected by my decision to oppose Bob Casey and by my actions at Yearly Kos, where I took on Markos for his branding of Warner.

It is difficult to tell how badly I have been hurt by that decision, but it is my own decision to be to the left of the DSCC and DCCC.

As for members' diaries having a negative impact, I am unaware of any diaries causing problems. I did have to fight off a lawsuit over a diary Oui posted once, but that was about defamation.

But you all should know how this works. The right-wing trolls around looking for extremist statements. I have more than once seen mere comments by members quoted in the NY Times or right-wing magazines to show how extreme Daily Kos is. Or how anti-Semitic they are.

When Markos made his mercenary comment he lost all his advertisers for a while.

The reason Markos has DHinMI and his trollcops go around abusing conspiracy theories it so that the site cannot be marganlized so easily. He doesn't want it to be a political liability for Obama or Kennedy or Reid to post on the site.

So, here is my point. I don't want to do that. I never censored stuff that might be used as a weapon against me or the community. But as a member of the site, it behooves you to not be the source of something that is potentially embarrassing.

This is not me saying that people should restrict what they say. It's more using common sense.

Remember, too, that I didn't censor ductape's diary, but debated him, or tried to.

Now, here is something else to think about. It's true that the real problem with ductape's diary wasn't that he wrote it, but how sally, tracy, and mwac reacted to it. But it is also true that ductape just cause another major flamewar at another blog.

Now, we can argue that it is merely the content of ductape's diaries that is upsetting to stupid Americans. But we should also consider the fact that he is sometimes totally full of shit and wrong. And if his posts have the effect of dividing and sabatoging blogging communities, then maybe he is more of a problem than you are giving him credit for.

As for the comments of some of you where you thought I was dismissing all the work you've put into Booman Tribune, I am not dismissing it at all. All I was dismissing was the idea that spiderleaf cares about the well being of the community right now. She has done great things in the past. I don't dispute that and am grateful for that.

As for the idea that I am in this business for profit. I made $12,000 last year. By housing costs for the year exceeded that. I have $10,000 less in the bank today than when I started the site.

I don't want any medals for my sacrifice, but it is appalling for anyone to suggest that I am trying to enrich myself.

Finally, Tracy, please give it a break. The group of people here is diverse and can't be lumped into one group the way you have done in this thread.

It's wrong to suggest everyone here is a serial troublemaker. Very wrong.

Militarytracy said...

Respectfully disagree with you Booman on my serial troublemaker suggestion being incorrect. They are the same old names over and over and over again all together.

brinn5etc said...

On this blog, I think it is required that you name names and not just throw out vague "the same old...over and over again" BS.

I guess one would start with the contibutors list..."serial troublemakers" one and all, but then who else are you including in this, Tracy?

Yourself (1 vote from em)
Scribe (absolutely NOT a troublemaker in my view, but then again neither are supersoling or james....)

raging hippie, perhaps?
cannebarea boy?
(I, personally, think not)

well, there is tha bastard anonymous -- we all hate that person...

who else?

ummm, lessse here, booman, himself?

I really don't get your coming here to slam us all, when really, you have free reign (as most here do, aside from me) to blast away on your home site, or dKos or anywhere else you see fit, it amsuses me that you think you need to do so here.

catnip said...

Thank you Booman for that explanation about your advertising situation.

I won't continue the debate with you about the merits of DTF's writing. That has already been addressed at length and, at some point, we must agree to disagree.

As a response to members considering how their writing might affect your ad revenue, I would submit to you that (probably) a small minority even think about that as a consideration when they post there. I know I didn't and I measured what I wrote only by what I thought the overall community standards were. That can be a tough thing to nail down at times especially during periods of turmoil such as those your blog experienced. One might be left with an "anything goes" impression. That's why I suggested that perhaps you needed to elucidate what's going on in the background as a reminder to those who don't give advertisers a second thought.

And that, of course, brings us back around to the enforcement of community standards by means such as troll rating (painful, but necessary) and moderation by everyone involved. The situation occured because there were failures on many fronts and if those failures aren't adequately addressed (by something other than apologies and group hugs) then they are bound to happen again.

I'd like to see one of these American community blogs rise above the pack with members who stand by their principles as much as possible. And that means getting tough sometimes while nipping things in the bud. The cycles BT and MLW are going through are no accident. They're predictable. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again - expecting different results.

You have a lot of intelligent people on your blog with exceptional RL skills. If you guys can't work something out - well, I don't know who can. It has to go beyond hugs though. There has to be some way to further rational communication and workable solutions to these problems or you might as well pack it in and cut your losses.

That's all I have. Back to my blog to kick some butt now.

Signed,
"dumbass"

(you wanker!) ;)

BooMan said...

Dear Dumbass,

I hope the other people here don't mistake my disdain for your actions as disdain for them. You are a special case and I beyond tired of your bullshit.

I seem to recall you writing a front-page post at Liberal Catnip where you took me to task for Alan Dershowitz and posting this comment in the thread.

Right-wing reaction to Booman's post. I knew we'd all be lumped together. Thanks a lot, Booman.
catnip | Homepage | 07.24.06 - 1:13 pm | #


But hey, if I suggest that ductape's more zany ideas will be used in the same way, then I'm just concerned about ad revenues. It's the community that I'm worried about. And it's not amusing to see the same thing happen like clockwork over at MLW.

I don't know the details, but I do know you are personally blamed by a large faction over there for starting the flamewars that are culminating now with the ductape flap.

I also noted that you tend to show up at BooTrib any time there is any hint of controversy.

I remember Brinn doing the same thing. She would lurk for days and then jump into any thread where I attempted to enforce rules.

That's obnoxious and I am telling you how I see it. I don't attribute bad motives to any of the other people here.

Just you. And I've told you this privately as well. You're poison whether you know it or not.

DuctapeFatwa said...

I will have to agree with Miss Scribe, who with her usual wisdom, has made the very excellent suggestion that website owners avail themselves of their empowerment to make some very basic decisions regarding what they seek in the nature of their participation on the internets, specifically, if what is desired is to attain commercial success, be pleasing to American corporations to such an extent that the corporations agree to present the site owners with an honorarium, then I will again reference my earlier suggestion that the site owners take a tip from the various public relations and lobbying firms and employ "ghost bloggers" to post material whose content complies with previously established criteria designed especially to appeal to the corporations.

This, however, has nothing to do with perceptions, opinions, or internet behavior of "real people," who are very likely to have, and express, opinions without a thought to whether such will be pleasing to corporations, to politicians, whether such opinions are likely to cause the site owner to receive money from any source, in fact, or even whether the opinions are likely to find favor with other site participants.

If what is desired is to have a website that is a non-commercial "community" of like-minded individuals, then again, one should first establish what constitutes "like-minded," in order to be able to ensure that all material posted will be pleasing to everyone.

None of this has anything remotely to do with merely having a blog and allowing in the general public to speak their minds on issues of the day.

It would also behoove site owners to remember that anyone can make a blog, but not necessarily attract participants. Thus should a website be so fortunate as to attract people, regardless of what opinions those people express, it is they who are doing the site owner a favor, not the other way around.

Anyone who wishes to express their opinion on the internets can do so in any one or more of a very large number of websites.

It is those participants who have the desirable commodity, to place it in popular American free market terms, not the website owner. That commodity is their words, and if those words inspire others to comment, whether it is to agree or disagree, that is a value added commodity.

I have noticed that controversial opinions tend to increase website activity as opposed to decrease it, and this would result in a larger number of page views, which advertisers tend to view favorably.

Thus, if the departure of a number of individuals whose views are controversial in any way happens to coincide with a decrease in interest on the part of advertisers, such a sequence of events would not astonish me.

catnip said...

I don't know the details, but I do know you are personally blamed by a large faction over there for starting the flamewars that are culminating now with the ductape flap.

Despite your opinion to the contrary, MSOC has told me personally that only a handful of disgruntled MLWers hold my diary responsible for the wars that are going on there. Ask her. Don't just take my word for it. Their problems started long before I posted anything there.

What did your advertisers think about your Dershowitz post, btw? Did they think this was a good deal for their money? Do you think this statement didn't make waves throughout the right-wing blogosphere where you became the extremist progressive of the week and a symbol for so-called hateful liberals everywhere?

Forgive me for this but Alan Dershowitz's children should be hit by a 5000 lb. bomb made by an American military-industrial corporation, sold to Israel, and misfired into his home. Then he can talk to me.

You peddled that bullshit. Own it.

I also noted that you tend to show up at BooTrib any time there is any hint of controversy.

Bullshit. Was I there for the Parker and Brinn epsiodes? And, when I have posted there, was it just to stir up shit? Read the diaries I wrote. You'll see I meant no such thing. People were already pissed off at me because they thought it was my fault that SusanHu left. That coloured their reactions towards me from then on. It's like the Saddam had WMDs thing: some will never believe the truth because it just doesn't suit their comfortable prejudices.

You're poison whether you know it or not.

Any other names you'd like to call me? Get it all out - now. And, as I have asked you repeatedly: if you felt that way, why didn't you ban me a long time ago? Why did you keep asking me to come back? Why is it that you have turned so viciously against me since Tracy started her rampage there? What's your real issue with me? I don't even think you know anymore because you just spit out talking points that I hear from Tracy too.

I posted a sincere response to your ad revenue comment and this is what I get? Why? Does it make you feel good to keep hating me? To think I'm a "dumbass" and "poison"? If that's what turns you on and makes you happy, go for it. But don't expect me to understand how people like you and Tracy can continue to live with such delusions. I'd hate to live in your heads where grudges are held ad infinitum for no good reason. I don't post there anymore. What more do you want from me? To martyr myself on some cross of your making?

As I wrote at my place today: I will not surrender to people like you who want to debase me.

Get over yourself and move on with your life. You've wasted far too much energy attacking me and I'm not buying it. You are no longer worthy of a response from me.

catnip said...

One last thing. You wrote this above:

My ad revenue has been adversely affected by my decision to oppose Bob Casey and by my actions at Yearly Kos, where I took on Markos for his branding of Warner.

It is difficult to tell how badly I have been hurt by that decision, but it is my own decision to be to the left of the DSCC and DCCC.

As for members' diaries having a negative impact, I am unaware of any diaries causing problems. I did have to fight off a lawsuit over a diary Oui posted once, but that was about defamation.

But you all should know how this works. The right-wing trolls around looking for extremist statements. I have more than once seen mere comments by members quoted in the NY Times or right-wing magazines to show how extreme Daily Kos is. Or how anti-Semitic they are.


No repercussions on your ad revenue due to members' comments or diaries. None - despite how you've prattled on and on and on here about your lousy financial situation.

Take your finger-pointing hypocrisy back to your site where you were the only cause of lost advertising bucks and stop blaming everybody else here.

You and Tracy - masters of projection.

dove said...

Booman,
As a point of fact, the diary of catnips to which you refer, but don't know the details of, was posted to BT as well as at MLW. At BT (where I think it may have been more directly topical) it was generally well received. At MLW it was not. The difference lay not in the content but in the reception and responses.

As for who and what is 'poison', 'zany,' 'obnoxious,' whom you should feel disdain for and similar such -- well, obviously you have a duty to judge such things for yourself, as does everyone. Based on what I've seen here and elsewhere in recent weeks, however, I certainly wouldn't say that I'm willing to trust to your judgement in such matters. Which is fine: doubtless the sentiment is mutual.

brinn5etc said...

no worries, catnip, spiderleaf, fill in "troll" de jour here_______,

I'm sure this is somehow all your fault too...

yeesh.

catnip said...

True, dove, and one person who staunchly hung on to the belief that the dissention at MLW was all my fault for months recently rethought that opinion. See way above at 4:49pm.

catnip said...

Yes Brinn and this was all my fault too as was everything there directed towards shannika and Lilian Friedman, not to mention this and this, of course.

BooMan said...

dove-

I know that the diary was cross posted and caused no controversy. I don't know why it caused such a stir at MLW. Maybe the answer lies in the comments.

catnip-

I raised the issue of ad revenue for this reason. The mission of Daily Kos, MyDD, Booman Tribune, and MLW is to get Democrats and/or Progressives elected. If you are a member of one or more of those sites, you presumably are interested in seeing Democrats/Progressives elected.

You probably would also like to believe that the communities can influence the Democratic Party.

For that to happen, two things need to happen. First the blogs have to survive. Second they cannot be a political embarrassment and liability to any politician that might associate with them.

A community member that understands and respects this will take it into consideration when they decide what to post and how to go about making their points.

It was my violation of that rule that seemed to upset you about my Dershowitz. You were angry that I had given the right-wing an opportunity to paint us all as radicals. Apply the same standard to other posters and we have no disagreement.

The point is not that people should 'watch what they say', the point is to use a little common sense.

Associating yourself with the sentiment that 'We are all Hizbollah' is not a good way to go about expressing sympathy for the people of Lebanon or even opposition to Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.

But Ductape is quite open about his lack of concern for the mission of the various gated communities.

That was my point.

As for my personal animosity for you it has nothing to do with anyone else. I am not blaming anyone else here. I told you what I think of you. I think you have nothing but malice for Booman Tribune. That's my opinion. Maybe I'll change my opinion when I notice some evidence that you don't spend a good part of each day obsessing about the sites faults. At least your incessant emails have dropped off since you inserted yourself in my personal life.

My ill feelings and contempt for you have absolutely nothing with anyone else in this thread. So, don't try to paint it that way. It personal between just you and me.

Nanette said...

wowza! big thread.

Anyway, while all the rest of y'all are serial blog wreckers, I'd rather be known as a psycho vandal, thanks.

catnip said...

nouveau thread above - all serial blog wreckers and psycho vandals welcome...

DuctapeFatwa said...

I think we already may be pushing the blog title length envelope allowed by blogger, but I will make every effort always and henceforth to refer to Miss Nanette as "Miss Nanette, a psycho-vandal of no small cyber-note."

spiderleaf said...

Boo, I appreciate your reply and can understand your perspective and the issues inherent with running a site with mixed purposes as scribe pointed out. I also think it's hard to have a community when it's based on politics as there are so many nuances in individuals perspectives and beliefs. I think we were doing a pretty good job until this latest episode where things got really ugly.

In terms of me not caring right now, you're right. Well you are partially right. I do still care but I'm really cynical and am wary about investing time again when another hatefest can emerge if and when we peaceniks step on someone's toes inadvertently. I know I probably will, especially if things keep going all FUBAR in the world. So I'm still trying to figure out if it's worth it to give my all again.

I do have to say though that you engaging with us does make me at least see that you care enough about the community to try. I appreciate that. Give me some time to continue to process where my head is at.

Oh, and I am sooooo not getting in the middle of your fight with catnip. I actually see where you are coming from with equating your Dershowitz post with We are all Hezbollah in terms of potential negative impact. Myself, I actually got where you were going with the Dershowitz post and think I've said things such as that myself in moments of fury at the hypocrisy and injustice. Do I think it was smart or a good progressive thing to do? No. But then again I can see how a DTF post would have the same impact on a different side. I personally think you both have a right to say whatever you want. But if the site pushes to change the gov't and you do for the most part support pretty pure progressives (Casey holding your nose being an exception).

But... I think these things need to be spelled out more. You say that the problem with DTF's diary were Sally, tracy and MWAC reactions to it -- does that mean that if he posts something similar on your site (no DTF I'm not saying you WOULD, I'm just asking...), it's okay? I think I'm a bit confused still and really would like to understand so we can move forward.

Nanette said...

Yay, thanks Ductape! And no need to add it to the blog title, I am content with just individual acknowledgement ;)

Brian Nowhere said...

If you like, need a place where you can like, discuss stuff and not get banned for "being a prick"
check out nowhereweb.com
where it is OK to be a prick. Encouraged actually.