Sunday, February 04, 2007

Catharsis

ca·thar·sis

1. Medicine Purgation, especially for the digestive system.
2. A purifying or figurative cleansing of the emotions, especially pity and fear, described by Aristotle as an effect of tragic drama on its audience.
3. A release of emotional tension, as after an overwhelming experience, that restores or refreshes the spirit.
4. Psychology
1. A technique used to relieve tension and anxiety by bringing repressed feelings and fears to consciousness.
2. The therapeutic result of this process; abreaction.

That's what this place is all about (except for the medical purgation thing which sounds gross). It's a safe envirnoment to rant, vent, scream, swear, cry, laugh, hug - to just let it all out without any restrictions and I believe it is serving us all well in that regard because, even though we have no rules, we honour each other.

/end o' philosophical part

The comments section in spiderleaf's thread has become very long so consider this post Part Deux.

Through that process of catharsis a new blog has been born: Everybody Comes From Somewhere. (I still expect spidey to post a proper birth announcement here with a little pic of some kind so we can all fawn over how cute the new addition is. Apparently, she's been busy watching some game involving a pigskin. Ewww.)

So, we'll keep doing what we do best here: Mo Betta Meta

And the new blog will be a place for...well...that's being defined by the new community. I'll just call it "progress".

Now back to the catharsisizing catharsisization chatting...

193 comments:

NLinStPaul said...

Thanks for the new thread catnip. I am feeling the catharsis!!

And, to pick up where we left off...I think I just saw something interesting over at BT.

It looks like just about the time Tracy put up her GBCW diary, a new member signed up - statistic. And the only thing this new user has done is recommend her diary and give she and her friends 4's.

I'm not so good at the techno-detective stuff, so maybe someone else can dig a little further. But I'd say, keep an eye on the statistic.

Kidspeak said...

Hi, folks. I posted just an instant before catnip posted a new thread. Glad to see everyone over here. Long time no see, catnip, I've missed you.

Watching BT over the last three days is like a deathwatch! Can't believe Martin is so oblivious about his own actions.

blueneck said...

Hi over here on the new thread, kidspeak! I hope all is well with you guys!

Kidspeak said...

Hi, blueneck. We're freezing here.

I think we might have a "quorum" over here of BT/formerBT folk.

catnip said...

Hi kidspeak! Welcome.

I added my 2 cents to Tracy's diary. I think her "friends" over there need to know what she's been up to. I e-mailed Martin about it yesterday, so it won't be a surprise for him.

catnip said...

Nancy,

How has that statistic person rated Tracy's hidden comments? I can't see them.

Kidspeak said...

From what I see, she's rated them with 4's.

Teach313 said...

Well, things are looking grim at BT. Martin needs to snap out of it before he kills the blog. Spiderleaf, Booman way overreacted. MT should have banned way earlier in this mess. I'm hardly impartial though. As MT loses it, she more and more resembles my first wife. And I had a belly full of that 20 years ago.

Anyway, best of luck with whatever you all decide to do. I hope the catharsis works and you all move on. I was going to ask what it would take for any of you to come back, but that's a pretty stupid question.

I know that I went to BT to find a place to write the occasional serious diary and mostly humorous ones. I'm hanging in there for now, but I think the spirit is dying at BT.

olivia said...

Teach, I want to sincerely thank you for all you did this past w/e to try to set things right. I know you spent a lot of time and energy and I appreciate it. It's very sad to see what has happened, and I'm not sure what is going to come of it, but I want you to know that.

NLinStPaul said...

I'm not sure if I know enough to answer your question about hidden comments Catnip. Looks like Kidspeak does. But as far as I can tell, statistic just signed up recently and has only rated comments today since about 2 pm EST. Most of Tracy's that were hidden were before that.

Kidspeak said...

Catnip, Tracy's response to you shows the depths of her disturbance.

A classic combination of threat and paranoia.

catnip said...

I just had a meltdown over there. I need a hug.

catnip said...

And the anger in me has this to say right now: %&$@^&%$ ^&%$$^&&(!!!!

NLinStPaul said...

One other note about statistic, most of the "4" ratings given were in Tracy's GBCW diary. But one of the exceptions was a 4 given in Boston Joe's diary to Salunga when he dissed Ductape.

Interesting that a newcomer would pick that comment out....

catnip said...

But as far as I can tell, statistic just signed up recently and has only rated comments today since about 2 pm EST. Most of Tracy's that were hidden were before that.

D'oh. I didn't think of that. Thanks.

catnip said...

Yes that DT comment was a bit of revisionist history, to put it lightly.

NLinStPaul said...

I know its my lesser self talking, but catnip, I'm glad you took her on. You needed to let her know that she can't get away with that kind of crap. And I was getting pretty sick to my stomach with all her nicey victim shit.

CookTing said...

I agree with olivia here, teach313. Your devotion to helping the pond remain a healthy ecosystem is admirable and puts you in the same camp as diane101, scribe, shirlstars, nlinstpaul, BJ, JB, blueneck, and on and on, in that unofficial list of elders and peace makers. It's nice to see everyone continuing the march onward, wherever that takes us. I hope we continue to have the benefit of your voice in our conversations. Anyway, I hate to be naming names, but I wanted to shout out to some of those folks for all your hard work... there are so, so many others I haven't named who I personally value so much. Just wanted to say thanks.

Teach313 said...

Catnip, I don't know you, but the effort of MT to discover you identity tears it for me. I don't care how long ago it was. I don't care if you've been holding this fact for 9 months. (I don't think you have, but it doesn't matter.) If someone as unstable as MT got that information, she would use it. Maybe not on BT, but somewhere. The world of BT revolves around MT. Either BooMan shuts her up or I'm done there. I'm watching and waiting. Now that the Super Bowl's over, he may be paying attention. Unless he's had too many beers or a Three Stooges Festivals is on.

catnip said...

I am so sick and tired of people sticking up for her while they ignore the facts about her. She's a manipulater of the worst kind. People need to know that and they can't deny it (as much) when those facts are laid out in front of them.

Kidspeak said...

Catnip, your comments to Tracy were entirely moderate given her post on that web.

I've never met MT, but she is a seriously disturbed woman. Dangerous, even, to herself and clearly to others. I've said as much to Martin.

(Oh, and I also suspected that "statistic" was possibly Tracy herself.)

((((((((Catnip))))))))))

Teach313 said...

Oliva,
Thanks for the kind words. Diane has a habit of assuming that everyone agrees with her. I'm not sure my work will make a difference as MT is still running wild. Martin has to get rid of her.

spiderleaf said...

just to jump in here, as I'm wont to. Tracy posted that comment in Oct. 4 months ago.

And Second Nature's response??? Oh, that almost deserves an update.

catnip said...

teach,
I honestly did not know about that outing post until yesterday. If I'd known about it sooner, I would have brought it up then. Believe me. That flipping scared me. Just ask the people who were here yesterday when I found out about it. Holy shit. I could not believe that she had tried to go that far with her vendetta against me.

supersoling said...

Hi Teach, Kidspeak,
When Tracy went off on me the other day I felt threatened for the first time in all my internet time. I normally don't scare easy but the depth of her attack was...well, it threw me off a little there.

And Teach, I agree with you that if that place makes it, it won't be because of new rules. And you deserve a lot of credit for trying the best you can to save it.

supersoling said...

Spidey?...Oh...spidey? :o)
Can I please have amin privs at ECFS? Pretty please? :o)

Kidspeak said...

Hi Super! Great to see you. I am so damn upset about all of this - you were treated in a fashion that I also found frightening.

I don't often trot out professional stuff in judgments about what's written by others, but in this case, I emailed Martin, and told him on the basis of my training, that Tracy is not going to be able to control herself. She's getting worse. Stringing her along is a grave mistake. Such a nice thing you said, NL, about holding people's feet to the fire even if they have problems, along with James' links to all those "enabling" behaviors. Martin is enabling her to get worse. She's moving from being moody to being paranoid. She does not need pity, she needs psychiatric help in a major way.

I can't truly diagnose people via blogwriting, but she certainly meets criteria for one of my favorite "real world" diagnoses: BSC= Bat Shit Crazy.

You both are within reason to be frightened.

spiderleaf said...

Teach and Kidspeak: Thank you so much for coming over here and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it more than you know.

I also considered you part of my "ps" :)

Martin has made his choice unfortunately. Teach, originally I did want to go back. I never wanted to leave. But how can I? He has gone out of his way to smear me all over that site and to disrespect those who are trying to honour the definition of community. I would do myself a diservice if I went back.

But I would absolutely encourage you both to sign up at the new site Everybody Comes From Somewhere and join in the discussion. I sure as hell wouldn't want to lose touch, or both Kidspeak and your perspectives!

and, I honestly and truly think diane101 has nothing but the best intentions, even though she is beating a dead and ornery horse at the moment.

spiderleaf said...

super darlin', it appears if you aren't in firefox you don't have the tool bar. :(

I'll need to do some digging and update the "using wordpress" post.

Try logging in from here... you have those precious privs my dear :)

Teach313 said...

Super & Cookting, thanks for the compliments. If Martin doesn't get his ass in MT's diary soon the doors are going to blow off BT.

Super, StreetKid pulled something that on me once, but not as bad. KS calmed me down and I never posted what I first wrote. KS gets the credit for that. I wish I had stepped in when MT started spewing that trash, but frankly I always avoided her. I didn't want to waste my time. Well I've been on-line most of the damn weekend trying to clean up what should have been stopped then. So much for avoiding conflicts.

BTW, I think the real starting point of this mess was when Martin came back from DC all pumped up and lectured those of us who couldn't or didn't go. You're diary then shook him up and rattled his dream state. He's been a little off emotionally ever since.

supersoling said...

Spiderleaf,
thank you :o) That's the ticket! I bookmarked the log in page.

Teach,
Me and a few others had some serious email problems with StreetKid. I'd forgotten about that till you mentioned it. My diary wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. More about how I was disappointed and grappling with the reality of the inneffectiveness of the current protest movement. But I was aware that it would throw cold water on the giddiness of it. Effin party pooper that I am ;o)

Kidspeak,Hi :o)
I also don't think it's particularly useful to diagnose anyone online but as I mentioned in another thread here last night I see so many tell tale signs of an actual illness. I won't name it, but I'm sure it comes close to what you might think it is. Either way, it does her no good to continue and it really is a risk factor for anyone who interacts with her.

NLinStPaul said...

I've got to go to bed now. But before I do, thanks to all of you for all you've done to help me stay sane through all of this. I'd like to give individual "shout-outs" to everyone, but like Cook Ting said up there somewhere, I just know I'd forget someone.

But even more importantly, thanks to the wise Ductape Fatwa for having the foresight to create a space like this for all of us. And I send out a message of peace to you Ductape wherever you are. I miss you!!

supersoling said...

Goodnight Nancy :o)

Nanette said...

Kidspeak (hi!):

I can't truly diagnose people via blogwriting, but she certainly meets criteria for one of my favorite "real world" diagnoses: BSC= Bat Shit Crazy.

That's always been my diagnoses of her, I'm afraid. Well that and very self indulgent. The first diaries she posted, either at kos or bootrib, I don't recall, were so unhinged that they had people worried she was going to kill herself. She had to assure them she was just venting. Which is fine... venting is good, but wallowing and immersing oneself in.. whatever, is not. Sometimes one loses the keys to the exit door.

I don't know what booman is going to do, or where the site is going to go from here. I don't think he yet realizes that the problem wasn't *Tracy*, per se... but him, and his consistent refusal to handle the situation, and also his placing blame for Tracy's behavior on everyone but her. Throwing the rest of the site under the bus in order to avoid dealing with one person is just not a big recipe for success... or even more, trust.

Teach313 said...

Catnip, I do believe you just discovered MT's post. I was trying to say that MT's actions made the question of when you discovered it irrelevant. I'm firmly with you on the attempted outing. Searching for personal info on other sites is off-limits. That should be grounds for banning. We must respect each other's privacy.

catnip said...

Sorry teach. I'm tired.

Kidspeak said...

Nanette, I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, Martin is throwing away his entire work and purpose because he won't do what he's supposed to do. He just seems oblivious to what he has done and is doing. Blogs attract people with problems. that's not bad - the internet gives people voices who aren't listened to much where they live, or who can't physically do much, but they can think and write.

Tracy, however, is pushing in to a less rational, more paranoid way of acting and thinking. Martin can't save her. The BT community can't save her, nor should that community be burdened with having its purposes diverted on behalf of her difficulties.

Super, I had some very bad dealings with SK, also. She leaves not far from me, and I recognize her difficulties quite well. Suffice it to say she acts in one of the classic post headtrauma ways. If she stops and thinks, she does fine. But when she acts/writes quickly, all bets are off. And too often, that is exactly what she does. Her problem is serious, but not like Tracy's. However, the same principle applies, as far as I'm concerned: No corners should be cut for going out of control. She knows how she is, and she knows how to deal with it if she will.

Kidspeak said...

Hey, it is very late. I've got to get to sleep! Nite, everyone. Good to talk with you.

Anonymous said...

Scribe here.

Damn it's good to see so many of my favorite people here!

I am now officially at peace with things, and ready to help midwife the birth a badly needed new liberal blog. Thanks to you all who just "up and did it" and are willing to contribute some blood sweat and tears to get the babe born.

And thank to you teach, and everyone who did their level best to pull BooTrib out of the fire. Sincere, good hearted efforts like that are never wasted, regardless of outcome.

No one is ever going to know for sure what is going on inside Tracy. But tonight, I thought of a time in my own life, (while watching a husband die a long, horrendous death, while I was also taking care of two little ones), when I literally went crazy for awhile and acted a whole lot like Tracy. I wrote my final post to her on her diary tonight, and some might think it a bit too kind to her, given how much her totally dysfunctional behaviors have hurt so many. But I couldn't ignore that whisper of compassion those memories triggered, and write what I did, just in case she is where I once was. This does not lesson my hatred of her behaviors, or my firm belief she absolutely needed to be banned long ago.

That she hasn't been , and that all the destruction and pain has gone on and on, well, there is only one place to lay the responsibility for that, and that is with Martin. For whatever his reasons, which we also will never know for sure, it was his reluctance to take needed action that caused it all. It's too bad he wasn't more able/willing to absorb and use the sincere and caring feedback I know he received, privately and publically, from a whole lot of us, some with a professional background to speak from.

There are many ways to "leave" a once beloved place. I won't be making any announcements over there, nor will I stop dropping in. But I have removed whatever part of my heart that has been hanging out there.

Which makes seeing you all here, and knowing Spidey and CT and I'm not sure who all, have already started construction on a new "place" so we can stay together awhile longer if we so wish, such an incredibly wonderful thing. Otherwise, I'd REALLY be sad tonight.

Instead, I plan on sleeping like a baby, and getting up ready to do my part over at Everyone Comes From Somewhere. What a perfect name!

Anonymous said...

Scribe again..forgot something.

Nannette, I am so grateful to your for your very wise words about not carrying any of past into the new place.You are so right on. I know I just couldn't bear to listen to this whole painful thing rehashed over and over over again.

Maybe ol Ductape IS here with us, via leaving us mo betta. It'd be like just him to understand the need for a place where people can do whatever kind of uncensored transition work they need to, so they CAN move.. ONward.

Teach313 said...

Catnip, no apology is needed.

catnip said...

This was the thread that followed my post about Tracy outing me:

********
Re: question from the back of the room (none / 0)

May 27th, 2006. Just checking, because that seems like 9 months ago.

by Second Nature (denn1214 - at- gmail dot com) on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 08:28:54 PM MST


* [new] Re: question from the back of the room (none / 0)

And that's somehow significant because?

The Left End of the Dial v2.0 - An "American Solidarity" (Solidaridad Americano) Blog
by James Benjamin (the_bokononist at yahoo dot com) on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 10:25:56 PM MST


* [new] Re: question from the back of the room (none / 0)

Man, this thread is becoming the mobetterest ever.
by BooMan on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 10:43:48 PM MST


* [new] Re: question from the back of the room (none / 0)

I'm mobetta than you, neener, neener, neener!

Impeachment: It's not just for blowjobs anymore.
Darth Cheney goes first.
by CabinGirl on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 10:48:28 PM MST
**********

Any questions?

Is there anybody left who thinks Martin takes ANY of this seriously?

Talk about being "pricks".

supersoling said...

scribe,
one last thought before I head to sleep. I've seen it insinuated that there are those, and I assume I'm one, who don't really care about Tracy. I don't hate any part of her. Not even the behaviors. I do hate what is happening to her. When we met in DC back in 05 she and I spent some extra time together because I was the one who drove her to her care. We had a couple of hours. When I think of her and that time, I don't think about the protest. I don't think about the next day seeing the monuments and memorials. I think about a few moments on the Metro when I was talking about something and the way she just looked at me so intently and completely interested in what I was saying and how she and I agreed on so much. More of an unspoken agreement though than anything. You know? And that is, among other things of course where I really began to care about her. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone over there thinks about me or how I've interacted with her lately. I do care very much for her well being and the safety of her husband. I just cannot support the military in any way right now. It doesn't mean I want the military disbanded or that I wish them ill will.

It's all very sad to me. Very sad.

Teach313 said...

This mess has consumed too much of my time. BooMan is welcome to his world. I hope he enjoys it.

spiderleaf said...

had to add update 7. It proves my point better than any snark or questions I could ask.

Pathetic.

NEXT!!!

catnip said...

I left him a response, spidey.

What the hell is "infestating"? Infesting while stating something? *new word alert*

Pathetic is right. That should be an eye opener to some people there.

spiderleaf said...

And I added an update to the site title. Hell, Tracy labeled us that, Martin should own it.

Anonymous said...

spidey, please..take that off the title. It's just not necessary and it's only going to feed the fires..gawd knows they're hot enough

please?

catnip said...

What did I miss? What was the title before?

Anonymous said...

Mo Betta META - A Kewl Sleeper Cell of Serial Blog Wreckers - *according to MTracy

Very clever.

scribe said...

thank you, Spidey...

Nanette said...

Jeebus. I've figured out the problem... he's as paranoid and uh... as Tracy is.

Most of this is just flat out lies.

(the word verification sounds like a good response to his post too... "oh wif!")

catnip said...

I believe it was wu ming who called me a "serial blog wrecker".

Anyway, I have captured Tracy's diary just in case it suddenly disappears - because I have a feeling it will. Booman does not like to be challenged openly.

I need to get some sleep.

Nite sickos!

Iowa Victory Gardener said...

Wow. As if it were some exquisitely rendered bloody trainwreck amongst the piles of rotting citrus peels, I couldn't stay away tonight and ended up reading that latest screed, cum "swan song."

Spiderleaf nailed it in that update 7 ... when I read those comments earlier, it seemed like the curtain was truly down, and I was sickened by what I saw. Yeouch.

Teach, you've put a lot of hard work into some really thoughtful diaries and I hope you realize (as others have said) some of us really do appreciate it. You and KS are quite a team, even if I do envy your bountiful columbine crop we somehow can't seem to replicate here! :-)

And Scribe, you too, along w/Catnip, Spiderleaf, Super and the others who have made their exodus, have been sane and rational voices in this whole mess.

Thanks ... heartily agree also w/Nanette that leaving the past at the door as the migration continues. If you don't bring poison into the house, nobody suffers its ill effects.

spiderleaf said...

okay, BooMan just fucking impugned all of our integrity over here and tried to imply we identified with that title when MilitaryTracy called us that in the threads here in August and DTF updated the blog to reflect that. CabinGirl has repeatedly brought that up as "proof" of our outsider status. I of course was always there to correct her as to the source of the slur.

I will not fucking delete that update now that BooMan has referenced it again to cast us in a negative light. If any other admin wants to do so go ahead.

But DO NOT ASK ME TO DO SO. It is beyond my ability to be "fair" at this point.

catnip said...

I still don't see the "*according to MTracy" part in the title. Have I gone blind?

scribe said...

Nope..you-re not blind. She took it down when I asked her too.

Given events since then however,..it's hard to see how that or anything could have make anything worse than it is...

It's just that this is all a pretty volitile situation right now, and this blog is open to anyone who wants to read it. There's no way to know who is, or how stable or unstable they may be. We may understand that we're just venting in a safe place set up to handle it ..but who knows how content here could be used by someone who wanted to hurt someone here? It's a concern to me, thats all. I don't want to see any more harm come to anyone involved in this.

spiderleaf said...

scribe, I added it back in. This is just some sick shit and I don't want to remove DTF's words on this site, but at the same time I don't want Martin to use the monkier as a weapon.

So I added back in the update and the * in the subtitle. If anyone wants to delete it, scribe, you too I can see you point, please feel free. I just can't abide everyone's integrity being degraded here, nor will I remove DTF's words.

But I am flexible :)

supersoling said...

spiderleaf,
I haven't even read what's going on over there this morning. Not sure I want to. But I agree with scribe that the title isn't necesarry. I have to wonder though, what does anyone think would happen by posting in Tracy's diary? This is a repeat of the same old bullshit. Why go there? Just migrate on over to the new place. I understand wanting to point out all the bullshit. But anyone with half a brain can see the deal now. No one left to point anything out to. Let it go.

NLinStPaul said...

Spidey, I'm so glad to see that you saw the comment by Kamakhya in Booman's meta thread. Bless her lovely heart!!

sjct said...

Well, I've left a parting shot in Diane's goodbye diary and logged out of BT. I've been letting go for months but the final break still feels sad. Time to let go and move on...

Think I'll spend my free time today reading a romance novel and reminding myself that relationships and communities on the internet are just pixels on a glowing screen...

scribe said...

Spidey. I totally understand your anger and the desire to fight back, no holds barred. And you certainly are free to do so here or anywhere else you so choose, in whatever manner you choose. However the unrestrained expression of even totally justifiable anger does carry consequences that often end up shooting us in the foot in ways that just do not serve us or our purpose at all. Believe me I speak from long hard experience, having spent most of my life being a wild eyed Joan of Arc type who charged off into one battle after another, fighting unfairness and injustice like a madwoman, determined to stamp it all out wherever I saw it! Courage I did not lack, believe me, and ever single cause I took up badly needed to BE taken up too, so I know I did some good with how I was, too, even it it did cost me dearly, in terms of my credibility.

Unrestrained expression of anger, in this culture, is seen as instability, and that is just a flat out fact, never mind if it should be or shouldn't be. People react to it with instinctive defensiveness and once that happens, they no longer can even hear what we want them to. And it scares often scares the hell out of our allies too, who don't want to get hit by the flying shrapnel, and they then distance themselves from us. But the worst thing was (that I did not see for many many years) that my loud enthusiastic battles themselves ended up distracting people from whatever the injustice itself was that I was trying to "right"! The "problem" (in the eyes of those in charge) became ME, not the injustice, which of course got shoved back under the damned RUG!

Credibility, (I know NOW,) is simply essential, if I am to be able to make any positive difference anywhere. It's too easy, especially in a limited medium where people can only see our words, for people to "write off" those they perceive as being "out of control" or "over the top" and way too easy for that to then be used against us to deflect from the issues at hand.

I share this from a genuinely good place in me that simply wants to offer this to you to think about, and see if there is anything useful to you in it. I have no need to try to control how you express yourself or where. Thats your choice, not mine. And I truly do want to work beside you and the others to try to create a solid, balanced liberal website. I also know that it if is to fly, we all need to be seen by others as credible people, or we will not draw the kind of folks we want, and we will draw those who just love to battle for the excitement of it.

God Spidey..you are such a fine warrior, with such a good heart and such courage..I am in awe of it. It is so needed now.

scribe said...

Super, I agree with you that there's not much to be gained from continuing any battle on BooTrib anymore. In fact, it's sort of like handing those who want more ammunition yet another round, knowing full well it's going to be fired right back at us. They're not listening: minds are made up and that's that. If it could possible make any kind of difference, it'd be worth it, but there IS no for forcing others to change, no matter how much truth gets shoved in their faces.

I dunno about anybody else, but I've got a finite amount of energy and time, and I am damned if I am going to give that situation over there any more of it.

spiderleaf said...

Point taken everyone. I changed the tag back. Sorry I let my anger at Martin's distortions cloud my judgement.

spiderleaf said...

btw, if anyone has leezy's email addy it would be great if she knew about "everbody comes from somewhere"

And thanks to sjct for pointing folks over there in your comment! :)

sjct said...

Spider, I hope I didn't jump the gun before ecfs is ready for primetime but it was my last post over there... On the other hand, if more folks show up before everything is set then they can be a part of arranging the furniture and have a vested interest in building a community.

Anonymous said...

I am so pissed off...BooMan is *such* a revisionist -- hsi selective memory is a fucking SIGHT to behold! Check this out:

BooMan says:
~~~~
In the history of this site, not a whole lot of people have been banned. As far as I can remember, no one has ever been banned for making personal attacks on members except Brinnainne, and almost all of her attacks were directed at Susan and at me. Brinnainne was warned, she was suspended for a day, she was suspended for a longer period, and she just kept getting angrier, so eventually I banned her.

No one else has been banned for making personal attacks, but that is largely because not many people have engaged in them.
....snip...

I find it disturbing for a segment of the community to insist on the banning of a member even after I have explained my reasons for not banning them. There were a smaller number of people that wanted me to ban Brinnainne. I listened to them. I sympathized with them. But she was someone that a lot of us cared about and I let her go on in a vain effort to reconcile and work through our issues. It was okay as long as the only recipients of her abuse were Susan and me.
~~~~~~

--from diaine101's diary, here:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/2/5/4147/30556

grrr. I am trying really hard to keep myself from going to those old links and posting up his BS from later 05, early '06 -- what a self-serving liar he is.

Sorry, just had to rant a moment -- not sure that I am all the way done, but I'm done for now.

--brinn

Nanette said...

Yes, well... I don't know if it's honest revisionism (I mean how the brain sometimes reorders things to more fit in with what one can accept of ones own actions and so on) or deliberate... and at this point, I don't much care really. To go in and attempt to correct all the inaccuracies (yet again) would not be productive, for me anyway. I left the site long ago.

Ductape still makes a convenient scapegoat tho:

When I was offline for the evening (announced) the Muslim cartoon thing went down, driving Susan from the site.

He said here (or maybe on one of the other blogs before we started this one) that Susan's leaving was due to personal reasons that had little or nothing to do with the cartoon mess. Although both she and he have allowed people to think so, by silence, since she left. And now, saying the direct opposite.

Also, I love the implication that people waited til they knew he was going to be offline to get offended by racist trash on the front page.

C'est la vie. Just another day in the life of a serial blog wrecker.

scribe said...

Hey Spider..there none among us who hasn't let genuine anger get the upper hand somewhere along the line. Thats the power of a good group, when we can step in a help each other "steady out" a bit when needed. I know I sure as heck hope anyone here does that for me, not if, but when it's MY turn to end up spouting a bit too much steam out the end of my fingers!

catnip said...

Diane's leaving. Hmmm...canary in a coal mine moment there. She put her heart and soul into that place - as did all of us - but that seems to have been totally discarded now that we have been recast as Enemies of The Frog Blog.

Oh well.

This has all been an emotion and energy-sucking experience. I've neglected my own blog and need to get back into that groove today for a while so I'll try to get over to the new blog later.

My heart is with all of you and others not here who have been wronged and hurt by what's happened. I agree with super (((hugs))) - anyone with half a brain (or even less) can clearly see the way things really are over there now. I think that's all been made crystal clear - and not by our words, but by Martin's.

The one thing we've always had on our so-called "side" is the facts. I don't even know how we can be called a "side" since the people who post here have had exactly the same thing in common as the rest of the BTers - the hope that the community could be made to work. But it can't "work" if the owner doesn't acknowledge the concerns of its members. That is and has always been the bottom line.

I need more tea.

scribe said...

Brinn..here's a branch to gnaw on..:) I know it's hard, but your dead right:

"C'est la vie. Just another day in the life of a serial blog wrecker."

NLinStPaul said...

Hey Brinn, I've been trying to correct some of the record as I see it. But I don't know/remember enough about your situation to have said anything about that. Sorry.

spiderleaf said...

Well, I just saw AP's comment. I don't necessarily disagree with her opinion except to say that if I was BEYOND OBNOXIOUS in response to Boo it would be for exactly the reasons I outlined in my post here... If someone is lying about me and calling me names I will defend myself. It wouldn't have been obnoxious if Martin had apologized for his smears. We would have moved on.

I may also have been obnoxious to Tracy by calling her out on her trolling of my Gore diary. That I can live with too.

scribe said...

I'll have tea with ya, Catnip. Yep, an energy sucking, frustrating and very sad experience that has caused genuine distress for a whole lot of folks, me included. At least it doesn't take me quite as long to wake the hell than it used to and the letting go/moving on isn't quite as painful a process as it used to be.

spiderleaf said...

Yes, it is unfortunate Susan decided to post that cartoon when Martin had announced he would be offline. WTF??! What world does that guy inhabit?

And Bri, yes, he is completely changing the way your banning went down. And neglecting to mention Susan telling you to get mental help.

spiderleaf said...

NL, I saw your comment back to SN now that Tracy has left the site.

I appreciate you bringing up the "blog wreckers" issue again, but I personally don't care what Martin has to say about me any more. He is so full of hate for me that he feels completely justified in reveling in his fake reality.

Kamakhya's comment says it all for me. Until he addresses that he is just playing nice to lure you back.

I don't think he is a bad person, just not being honest here at all.

He even lied about how long he was blogging. 12 hours straight? If anyone is interested in the truth I'd take a quick look at his comment history. He was also scarce for most of the weekend. He does spin a good tale though.

NLinStPaul said...

Spidey, You know I love you and your ability to be a truth-teller, but I'm just not ready to believe that Martin has any more malice in his heart than you do. IF I continue there at all, it will be to keep pushing him to re-think his black and white way of looking at all of this.

I don't expect you to feel or see things the same as I do. If he had said all those things to/about me, I'd be in the same place as you. All I have to do is think about you, catnip, super, DJ and others to remember who it is we are talking about. Call me naive, but I'd like to see if he has the capacity to see you like I do. Maybe not. We'll see.

Maybe some of my interest in doing this is that I went through hell when I took a position of leadership in the organization I work for. I'm not giving him any slack, its just that these lessons are hard-learned. I made such stupid mistakes thinking that I was doing the right thing. I'm not sure Martin has the ability to do all that is required to keep that site together. His best hope might be having a group of "elders" that he calls on for advice. But I do see myself in some of the errors he's making, and I know I never did any of it out of hatefulness, just immaturity in leadership.

spiderleaf said...

Thanks for the response NL, no worries, I don't expect you to see things the same way I do, and I appreciate your understanding of how angry I am right now.

I am walking away from there knowing I made mistakes, but knowing I had finally reached the limit of what I would tolerate.

One last thought as CG has brought out my original comment to Kamayka, she neglects to link to the comments she was replying to which is WHY I said what I did. They were the in response to what Tracy said to supersoling. That is what set me off. Her enabling and trying to rewrite history.

Enough. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that kind of poison again. If martin wants to apologize to me he can feel free to. Based on everything he continues to say about me on his site I wont hold my breath.

But thanks for listening to my rant anyway!

scribe said...

Boo has now removed Tracys commenting abilities, apparently with her agreement. Finally, an actual action has been taken. You did a helluva good job Nancy, in helping to bring that about. It's something that can actually keep others from having to go through the same crap we have over there, as concerns this member.

For me right now on this day, that familiar warm inner "community connection" I'd grown so used to feeling, just isn't working. I'm glad for this action, but it's a detached gladness...for others, not so much for myself.

catnip said...

A request...it would save me some time and searching if you could link to comments that you're referring to...(I've been so tired the last couple of days). Thanks.

Nancy,

I think you know that we've never been about the idea that everybody should just give up and leave BT here. Everyone has come at this from their own perspective and we've tried to respect others' decisions about what they choose to do.

Just because I've said here that people ought to be able the see the reality of the situation there does not mean that I expect anyone to give up when they think they can still contribute to making it work. Each of us who are no longer there have left for different reasons (besides the fact that Martin has not taken control of his blog etc).

I just wouldn't want you to feel that anyone is putting any kind of pressure on you to leave. This place is about dealing with meta issues on other blogs so we can figure out where we're at and try to support each other. That's all. I know you know that but I just wanted to give you some reassurance and support. Just keep doing what you're doing.

(((hugs)))

scribe said...

Nice work, Spidey..I am so glad you aren't going expose yourself directly to anymore toxic stuff that could hurt you.
I've stayed out of it all over there today, except for one thank you comment to Diane in her last diary. Spending time here and on ECFS instead, felt like the difference between working as a nurse on a cancer unit too long, then getting transferred maternity ward!

scribe said...

Catnip, sorry, but I don't know how to link. It was in Boos Meta diary, tho.

catnip said...

Thanks scribe. :)

(To link here just use this format:

[a href="http://liberalcatnip.blogspot.com]liberal catnip[/a]

Change those square brackets to the angled ones you find above the period and comma on your keyboard just like when you're using regular html.)

NLinStPaul said...

Thanks catnip - I appreciate the reassurance. I value so much all of you here and what you have endured.

I thought I was through with it all too. I don't think that right now I'd consider myself "there" or "gone." Just something in me today said that I wanted to take it on again. I suppose the fear is that it will all come to naught. And then I told myself, so what?? I don't loose if that happens. Mostly that's because I know I have here and ECFS to go to and find all of you.

One of the things I just love about getting older is that I see the value in going with my gut. Its so validating. So when my gut says "dive in" I will. And when it says "back off" I'll do that too.

You all are amazing!!! I guess I just wish Martin could see that.

BooMan said...

I'm putting this here because I don't want to furthrer this in green.

At root here is my problem with spiderleaf:

She made an argument that she had been looking at Manny's photos and saw that there was a photo where CG had her hand on my knee. And she made representations at that point that she realized for the first time that we were dating, and that that had made things clear to her about why Tracy was allowed to behave the way she had.

The logic being that Tracy is friends with CG and therefore will not let me discipline Tracy.

Okay?

Are we clear on what was alleged?

She also did it in an accusatory tone and went on to call CG a liar and post the link to the picture for good measure.

Now, I didn't care for any of that, as might be expected. But what really got me was this idea that she had just discovered this potential conflict of interests.

So let me run down what you must believe to believe spiderleaf is telling the truth.

1) when she discussed coming down to meet supersoling, I got an email from him telling me she was excited about meeting me. We have to believe that he didn't mention that CG was dating me and coming with me. I don't believe that.

2) when we had to cancel, we had to cancel as a couple because her child had rolled in poison ivy. We have to believe that she couldn't make the connection that if I cancelled because of the sickness of CG's child, that we were dating.

3) when we cancelled, CG called Supersoling on his phone. Spiderleaf disputes this but CG confirms my memory. When she called, she was put on the phone with spiderleaf, and then asked me if I would say hello. I got on CG's phone and talked to her and apologized for not being able to come but explained we couldn't go because of the poison ivy. I told her I hoped to meet her some other time. We have to believe that both CG and I have a false memory, and that spiderleaf could not infer from this that we were dating.

4) we have to believe that that whole weekend the subject of me and CG's relationship never came up and that supersoling never confirmed it or gossiped about it. I totally don't believe this one.

5) after catnip emailed me about my relationship with CG it became a big issue that was discussed, usually in veiled terms, in several threads, including at this blog. We have to believe that spiderleaf engaged in these conversations and remained oblivious to who my girlfriend was that was being discussed.

6) we have to believe that when she said recently, inadvertantly, that she never cared about who I was dating until it became an issue that she really was referring to non-events in December and not the real events in July and August.

Here is the bottom line. If you believe she didn't know we were dating each other for a fact certain long long before January, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

That is the bottom line.

She decided to attack my girlfriend, call her a liar, post a picture of her with an accusatory allegation, and then lie to me about her state of mind.

Truth-teller? Friend of the blog?

People...be fair. Banning her was an obvious choice. No one of you would tolerate this behavior on your own blog or in your life.

NLinStPaul said...

BooMan, I can understand your anger at your relationship with CG being brought into all of this.

But really, what is the difference if Spider knew in July or last week? I just don't get your obsession about that.

booman said...

nl-

because she lied about it. She attacks me, attacks my girlfriend, lies brazenly.

You have to understand the history here. I had to put up with this allegation back in July. She was a part of that. I believe she actually initiated it. I have suspected that since it happened.

Having her come back and post this crap and play innocent is enough to make my head explode.

Why do you think I call her a blog wrecker?

How else would you define it? Obsessively examining my personal life, obsessively engaging in every contentious thread, playing stupid, playing innocent, lying in response to direct questions...

Jesus.

James said...

Of course Tracy's only been blogwrecking for, um, how long now? And yet she got what amounted to a free pass over and over again. As Orwell put once, some animals are more equal than others.

Jesus, indeed.

spiderleaf said...

Ah, it's funny to me that CG would try and spin it now that she was talking about 2 groups of "cliques" making the same arguments.

Which cliques would those be? Me, Super, and Leezy vs... Tracy, Second Nature, and.... right, CabinGirl. She was talking about herself in that comment? I didn't think so. But good spin nonetheless.

And the same cliques over and over? Someone shouldn't respond when Tracy writes they are a "fucking pig and should die"? Enabling Tracy and now trying to spin.

oh, and Martin, thanks for stopping by. Unlike you, just so we're clear, I won't be banning your IP from this site, even though you are continuing to lie about me based on what you THINK.

I'll get around to replying in depth later. Or not. My post below speaks for itself. You are making this up based on what you THINK must have happened. And if it didn't? Right, you'd be wrong and need to apologize.

spiderleaf said...

oops, sorry catnip, here's the link.

catnip said...

I'm putting this here because I don't want to furthrer this in green.

What? Everything you wrote there is on your blog. Coincindentally, I was just reading it since CG linked to it in your meta diary.

People...be fair. Banning her was an obvious choice. No one of you would tolerate this behavior on your own blog or in your life.

I, for one, will not be lectured on fairness from you, especially when you flipped out repeatedly at me via e-mail after my initial e-mail to me for no good reason and to add further insult to injury you insisted over and over and over again that I accept Tracy's so-called apology that she posted at BT. I told you I knew her apology was just a farce and guess what? I was proven right.

You can state your defence here, Martin, but you keep overlooking one thing: you don't know who told me about your relationship. That's the bottom line no matter how much you want to pretend you're Sherlock Holmes.

As for telling me or anyone else what we would do on our own blogs, I'll just tell you that you're wrong. You see, when conflicts come up on my blog, I deal with them immediately. I don't ignore the situation and wait for it to blow up again. My readers deserve that from me so they know my place isn't some free for all where they won't want to participate anymore and I don't care who causes problems (and that includes my landlord and his previous ad hominem attacks on my blog for which, if he held a grudge against me for straightening him out, I could even lose my place to live) - everyone who violates the rules is treated the same.

I don't tolerate abuse on my blog. Period. You, on the other hand, enable it. That's why you're in the spot you're in and that's the one thing you seem to be incapable of understanding - to the detriment of your entire community (including Tracy who's been allowed to wallow in her problems while you've stood by and thrown your hands in the air. You have only contributed to her choice not to seek and accept professional help. Deal with it. Your indifference has harmed her.)

So you just keep telling yourself that you're all-seeing and all-knowing. You aren't. End of story.

(One last thing - funny how you do nothing but diss this site on your blog but suddenly appear here when you decided you didn't want to keep talking about this meta stuff there which is, after all, what this site was set up for. How ironic is that?)

You're the only one "wrecking" your blog, Martin. Just which part of it's your blog don't you get?

catnip said...

You have to understand the history here. I had to put up with this allegation back in July.

Stop right there. There was no fucking "allegation". You flipped out when you read my e-mail. I tried over and over to tell you clearly that that revelation helped me to possibly understand the dynamics between the people involved. That's it. And I honestly wished you all well. You took your interpretation of that, which was that I was being nasty, and ran with it for months on end. You totally misunderstood what I wrote. You still do. And see where it's gotten you and everyone else? In this flaming pit of bullshit.

Finally, you have admitted that your friendships clouded your judgment. So what the hell are you doing hanging onto this grudge which is all the result of your belief that somehow I had some alterior motive when you know I didn't.

Frankly, get stuffed.

NLinStPaul said...

Spider - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember CG getting involved in the battles between the so-called "cliques." So, that's why I took her explanation at face value.

BooMan - if you could just simplify things and get to the heart of what I think you're angry about it might help.

You keep throwing out this "she lied" thing, and it does seem that allegation is just based on your assumptions.

It seems to me that you're angry about her saying that your relationship with CG affected how you were treating Tracy. If I'm wrong about that - ok. But I think this "she lied" stuff is baloney and inflammatory.

catnip said...

And you picked the wrong fucking place to keep attacking spiderleaf. Go back and whine to your friends because we have had more than enough of your immature vitriol.

spiderleaf said...

I was certainly involved in the ductapefatwa diary back in july.

One of my comments, now that I've gone back to check on all the nasty things I said was in response to my good friend second nature. I'm pretty proud of it actually, and it's quite apropos to the current situation imo:

Re: Dear Ductape, (none / 1)
Nice to see you, dove! I haven't seen you here at Booman since....oh yes, the last time DTF posted one of these.
by Second Nature (denn1214 - at- gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 08:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dear Ductape, (4.00 / 4)
man, and we start to sound more and more orange each day.

Do you know that dove hasn't been lurking? and if she hasn't WHO THE FUCK CARES? Man. You talk about dividing the community and yet can't see that by remarks such as yours and others in this diary, basically a "with us or against us" mentality, that you are dividing this community. Right in front of your eyes.

Community is not homogenous. Not everyone agrees with each other or has to. A community that does is generally called a cult.

I'm glad DTF is here and making people uncomfortable and stirring debate. It gets pretty boring in the echo chamber or lounge... this is a political/ left wing site right? well, part of that is dealing with people who's opinions you disagree with.

Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me ~ Wafa Sultan

Jaded Reality
by spiderleaf (spiderleaf at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 6th, 2006 at 09:17:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]


And that comment CG made about the "cliques" was in agreement with Second Nature right? Okay, I got it now.

So is it not all Ductape's fault anymore? I'm so confused.

spiderleaf said...

catnip, thanks ;) but don't worry about it. Martin is making my case for me and it's nice to watch.

spiderleaf said...

hey NL, yes, CabinGirl was in the thick of things in July. I believe she posted in one of the threads here as well as supporting Tracy in her meltdowns.

I really need to get back to work though so perhaps someone else has more context.

catnip said...

I'm not worried about it, spidey. I just want him to know that he is not going to find a receptive audience for that kind of crap here.

I miss Ductape. :(

It's kind of funny that the right-wingers on my blog use the same tactic Martin does - when an argument isn't going their way they just move the goalposts and claim they've won. It's annoying.

booman said...

spiderleaf-

I am a little afraid to ask, but how many dossiers are you keeping on your enemies and how do you kind of archive it and index it?

I mean, I wouldn't know where to begin on finding a '4' rating on a comment from July. I'd have to search through diaries and open up everyone's comments and it would just take a very long time.

And I try to keep up with things in the Plame case on a somewhat obsessive level, but I could never compete with you unless I knew the secret to your madness or system or obsession, or whatever you professional blog wreckers call it.

I mean, you are sell well versed on this stuff it is amazing. I think you shoud write a book about it kind of like Marcy Wheeler's. I can even ask the FDL people if they are interested.

I am going to come ask you anytime I want to know some BT arcana, like a roster of who took which side in the Muslim cartoon controversy, and if we aren't sure about someone we'll just weigh their relative ratings or something.

It'll be cool.

You're one of a kind. I hope.

I wish I had your stamina and also your sheer grasp of BT history of flamewars. Goddamm. I am so impressed. I am almost floored that you are so good at keeping these details straight.

It's just hard for me to believe that you have all this stuff at your fingertips and you forgot I was dating CG.

Is that like a Rain Man thing?

spiderleaf said...

I clicked on your website. Hit the search button, entered in "Ductapefatwa", hit search, opened the diary you keep referring to "You can't reason with American's" and then hit Ctrl+F, entered my name, and hit "find next".

I'm so pleased you think that's a remarkable power I have. I'll take that as a compliment.

spiderleaf said...

Oh, and I would love to be quoted in Marcy's next book. I'm sure she's found a lot of the material useful from my Plame timeline.

Do you get off on being this petty?

Booman said...

you're totally obsessed and bordering on insane, you know that right?

hammering our four comments a minute at 4:30 in the morning, attacking Man Eegee for bringing down the picture?

You gotta chill. You can't destroy my blog in a day, or seven months even. You are formidable though and I have not underestimated for some time.

Till we meet again spider, try to let the force be with you.

supersoling said...

Hey all,
I'm going to make this my last comment on this particular deal here. Not that I'm bailing on anyone. I just can't get bogged down in the toxicity of it anymore. To be honest, I feel somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately that's familiar territory of my own making. Fence straddler, that's me and it tends to land me introuble time after time. I'm hopeful that more people will find their way to ECFS. And in that hope I can't see how furthering the ugliness of this whole thing will be helpful. I don't want a new home there as a substitute for BT. There is no such thing. I don't want it to be a rival site. It's unproductive. I know lots of people have been hurt and confused and they aren't all just here. I'm not as bothered by the Tracy stuff, at least not what was said directly to me as is being made out at BT. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the concern, and in the larger sense I guess I'm an example of how one shouldn't be permitted to speak to someone, but for real, itr's creeping me out a little to see my name brought up over and over. Lezzy got abused as well. We all need to remember that.

I'm not so interested in July, or Tracy attempting to out Catnip, or who is in DTF's cult and on and on and on. I'm the tye of guy who tries to make friends with a wide variety of people. Sue me. I don't agree with how Martin has handled this whole deal again, but I'd be a liar if I said i didn't like the guy. He's a good guy. CG is a good guy too. I'm not defending anyone. Just appealing to something higher ok?

Spiderleaf, you've been wronged, badly, I'm not denying your right to defend your honor. But for me, I need to retreat. The truoble with these things is that they always seem to deteriorate into a two sided war. It's ugly. I hate it. There are lots of little wrongs and rights mixed in between and lots of different peoplre with lots of different levels of involvement and hurts. And really, this is so dysfunctional and pathological. I can't engage in it anymore. I want to try and make the new place fly. That's my focus from here on out. Y'all wanna keep on battling, that's your business. Personally, I see no resolution at this point.

super

NLinStPaul said...

This latest exchange here has convinced me of the same thing Super. I think there is so much good on all sides. But there is some very deep hurt/anger that keeps people from being able to talk/listen/hear.

As my dear friend scribe would say...Onward!!!

spiderleaf said...

Thanks Martin. How repulsive of you. "Don't be a prick" indeed.

Super, you are right, he's a waste of my time. That site is sick and dysfunctional at best. And in my opinion Martin is a vile human being - his comments above to me says it all. I'm "bordering on insane". It all makes sense now why he didn't find issue with what Tracy said. Birds of a feather.

The new site will definitely not be anti-BMT, it's its own place and space.

scribe said...

What crappy timing. Just when Spidey is about ready to let it all go and move on, guess what? Boo shows up HERE and replays the whole damned tape. I swear, it's enough to give a person gas pains.

blueneck said...

The more BooMan repeats himself, the more it looks like a childish grudge to me about who said something about his girlfriend effecting his judgment. You know what, if my wife (used to be my girlfriend) DIDN'T effect my judgement, I'd be an idiot. That's the reason I hooked up with her, to have a partner in life who could work together with me to make judgments about life - big issues and small ones, too. I don't know anyone whose judgment isn't effected by their partner, in almost every way, if it's a good relationship, and probably even if it's a bad one, too.

AND, methinks he doth protest too much. If, in fact, CG's point of view didn't effect his own, he sure is denying it awfully hard and to the nth degree, including chasing down and villainizing anyone who doesn't remember or who doesn't care to remember, or who may have told what they thought was a "little white lie" at the time in order to head off a blowup of some kind or another. It's a totally childish response even if everything he said were true. I just don't get it.

And he keeps INSISTING that it was some sort of HUGE attack on him personally that deserves to be sleuthed out to the last tiny detail and the perpetrators punished severely for a major infraction. "She Lied" he says, therefore she must be "guillotined"! It's such a radical departure from his coddling of Tracy, it's absolutely stunning in the starkness of the contrast between the two.

I stand by my assertion that the only thing that gets anybody banned from his site is if they PERSONALLY piss him off and that his 'community' members don't really matter very much unless he knows them personally. ROYALLY and INEXCUSABLY piss off a user, and get a pass, piss HIM off, get guillotined in a freakin' hurry.

I'm pretty much done with it. I hope he changes, but I'm not holding my breath or my e-life in anticipation of anything changing. There's something to what scribe says about learning leadership, imho, but I'm with her on the feeling of community there having been totally destroyed for me, too. Almost all of the people I really care about are disgusted.

and btw, am I alone in not knowing that there is a TV show called "Curb Your Enthusiasm"? And what a total fucking coincidence that he was watching that show when he busted into the rulez diary to defend tracy from a troll-rating and felt like sharing that with everybody.... ohmigosh, its hilarious....

supersoling said...

Tracy destroyed your blog this last week Martin. Not me, not Spiderleaf, not anyone but her and your refusal to do the right thing for the whole. There are enough people pissed off over there to blow your Spideleaf/blogwrecker bullshit outta the water.
Now that's my last comment.

scribe said...

I know! That was a comedy writers wet dream come true! (Nope I'd never heard of that particular show either.)

BooMan said...

blueneck-

I am going to try to make this my last post in this thread and also, if possible, on this whole thing in general, except for rules changes.

You want to know what angers me more than anything else?

I just put down a case for my believing that spiderleaf was lying about her state of mind when she posted that picture.

No one bothers responding to it. It's a pretty iron-tight case, and no one even goes... 'hmm, crap, that's true, there's no way she was telling the truth there'.

No one seems to really care when the person getting attacked is me. No one cares that I have to just shrug off accusations that I'm on the take, that the DLC pays me, that I'm Markos' little stalking horse, and on and on.

I hear this stuff constantly from people on other sites that ARE ACTUALLY MEMBERS of BT. And then they show up all nice and go in the FBC and make nice and talk about dogs for a month until the first hint of a problem and then they jump on my ass.

And I understand a lot of this is part of the game for me. But why do you all not see it? Why don't I see you defending me? Why are some of you the very people in this thread, and why do the others never call each other on it?

Come after me, come after my girlfriend, look into my dating profiles from college, track down my prior arrest record, post it all if you want, if I piss you off or I don't administrate my site to your liking.

Make a wrong comment and I deserve it because I am sensitive enough to x.y.z.

Look. I don't expect members to defer to me. But if you think so little of me, why do you hang out? If you care about the site why don't you ever defend me against these attacks?

I just showed you a strong case that this woman that you are embracing and protecting has been making a case against me since July and that she just did it again in a hurtful, mean-spirited, and deeply personal way, and then lied about it.

And you guys can't even discuss the merits? Look at James response? Yeah, but Tracy did it too, he says.

That's a response? C'mon.

Just think about it.

And definitely watch Curb your Enthusiasm when you get the chance because it is funny as hell.

Anonymous said...

martin, brinn here -- let me just point out that the *very* last thing I was allowed to post on BMT was:

:this exchange with....wait for it, CabinGirl!!. I think that you are defensive about your relationship with her precisely *because* you know that it affected your interactions with other posters on your site, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. Who the fuck cares who you're dating?!? Except maybe your ex-wife and your parents -- I read over there that CabinGirl doesn't want her identity revealed to them...

Oh, and all of us "psycho-obessed" people are just better at using search functions than you are, methinks....just like you couldn't figure out how to change the settings so that *authors* could delete their own diaries instead of you having to do it one by one...it ain't that hard!

spiderleaf said...

Just because you keep repeating something does not make it so.

If you walked into a courtroom with your "strong case" I suspect the first thing you would be asked to provide would be evidence. I've asked for proof that I have been behind all the problems of your blog repeatedly. You have provided none. You ask people to defend you on what grounds? I have posted link after link (and get criticized for it by you), yet you write an essay without sources and I am the one making things up?

I'm the one who is "obsessive and bordering on insane"? I've been defending myself against your attacks, slurs, and smears in the only forum I have to do so.

Except the goal posts keep moving.

Come on.

NLinStPaul said...

Wow Martin, there's a shitload of stuff there. I'm not sure what all that is about people saying stuff on other blogs and then hanging out in the Cafe only to pounce on you. That's something you'll have to take up with people who know what you're talking about.

As it has to do with your case against Spider - you've never proven a thing. Its all still based on what you THINK happened. That's not a very tight case to use to call someone a liar.

Now, if you had come over here saying you're angry about the accusation that your relationships influenced your decisions about Tracy - maybe there could have been a conversation. But you came in yelling "LIAR" with a weak case.

Sirocco said...

As someone who has defended Martin in various contexts (most recently here), I do find him unconvincing on this one, and basically agree with the Kamakhya's comment yesterday. But rather than going into the gritty details, I'll offer this meta-meta (third order) thought:

I wonder if there's something intrinsic to the blogging medium that promotes this kind of ultra-convoluted yet bitter conflict between people who agree on most substantive issues? Since communication is only in writing, one is deprived of the benefits of body language. At the same time, writing is sticky compared to the spoken word. The mere possibility of conjuring up months- or years old comments, time stamped and electronically signed, obstructs the process of forgetting that is vital for communities. The Plame-like factual disputes here, for instance, are too arcane to be feasible in a pub. With blogging, especially in a scoopish setting, one gets the inevitable drama of human interaction, but with potentially perfect recall of every unfriendly such.

It's a shame, since blogging has at last rendered obsolete a mainstay of Plato's critique of writing -- that it cannot respond to questions but maintains a "solemn silence" when queried.

A shout-out to catnip and everyone I used to know back in my blogging days.

Anonymous said...

Brinn, you did post my real name in that thread.

And just so you don't have to worry, the people in question in your comment above know that I am indeed CabinGirl. Thanks for your concern, though.

CG

catnip said...

Hi sirocco! Wow. It's been a while. Hope all is well with you.

Who wants cheesecake?

scribe said...

Sucks, doesn't it. Well, that's how it goes for most who rise to the at top, Boo. If you cannot handle being targeted, if you can't tolerate being treated, unfairly by some, if you expect that you will ever do anything again that someone won't find fault with, if you think you'll have the luxury of being "understood," then you better get the hell out of a leadership position before it grinds you up and spits you out.

And if you had no clue that the fastest way to see your domain burn down is to exhibit blatant favortism and to exercise your power based on who personally pisses you off,then no way in hell are you prepared for a leadership position.

That's what I've learned about leadership roles, and I learned it all the hard way, when I was still so young and arrogant I thought I already knew all I needed to know. All of it was validated when finally I did get professional leadership training and was finally prepared to deal with these realities.

Even then, to do it really well, is one of the most challenging jobs there is.

spiderleaf said...

I'm feeling creeped out by the level of unmitigated hatred toward me on another site and it's creeping me out because I've shared pics of my kids and some personal information, and it's just scary that someone I don't know at all would have that level of venom directed at me.

Don't worry Second Nature, we're not MilitaryTracy. We couldn't care less who you are and have no interest in finding out. And dear oh dear, I've just been linking to your own comments. Nothing more. If you don't like the way they read that's your issue, not mine.

And I had no idea you posted pics or personal info online. I did know your daughter was ill and I told you how very sorry and concerned I was for you both. That is all. Nothing more. You have nothing to be afraid of from me, that's for sure.

But I would be concerned about ever crossing Tracy - she was hunting for information about who catnip was in real life back in October. I believe your response was... what's the big deal, that's from 9 months ago.

As BooMan says: Jesus.

I can't believe she's implying I would ever hurt her family. Unfuckingreal.

spiderleaf said...

Sorry, here's the link - seen via recent comments in case you were wondering BooMan.

spiderleaf said...

Thank you sirocco for stoping by and sharing some Plato and your thoughts on community dynamics.

Hope to see you around the internets!

blueneck said...

BooMan, the reason we aren't protecting you is because we're showing compassion and caring for the people who accidentally feel bad and say bad things about you sometimes. Don't those people deserve some compassion? If I see anybody doing it again in the future, though, I PROMISE, I'll give them a warning and hope that it won't happen again, OK?

Ditto what scribe said. I also said it in a recent comment when I told you that the leader of anything ALWAYS gets the blame and NEVER gets the credit. And you know what? If I'm the leader of something - that's the way I WANT IT. I give all the credit to the entire organization and take none for myself, and I take all the blame when something goes wrong. It's called.... LEADERSHIP! Welcome to the real world.

Anonymous said...

CabinGirl -- I *know* I posted your real name in that thread -- crimeny, can neither of you read? There is an APOLOGY from me for doing so, and Martin removed it (the comment with your name in it), I got called a "vindictive bitch" by you, there was some "ooooh, I'm scared of her when she uses my name" bullshit by Second Nature and then *I* was banned -- sorry, but the example stands as an echo of what has gone on with spiderleaf -- piss you two off personally and you're banned, that's the sum of "don't be a prick" at your site -- I agree with scribe, leadership ain't ya'll's gig, seriously.

Oh, and I wasn't concerned -- I was just noting what you said right here:

~~~~
Re: Meta Thread (4.00 / 2)
I have been away and busy with family, so am late to comment and grateful that I've missed most of this.
Kamakhya, I want everyone to know and understand that i was not relegated to "need to know" status by Martin. I realized at the beginning that there was a very good chance that people would begin to automatically view my comments as those of "the site owner's girlfriend" and dismiss whatever I had to say as a result, or worse, use our relationship against him. I wanted to remain an 'regular' blogger, with no special status on the site.

In addition, there are people we know in real life who read this blog that I didn't want to know my blog identity, including Martin's ex-wife and parents. I wanted to be able to maintain my ability to say what I thought and not feel like I have to self-censor everything all the time. Believe me, that's been a challenge anyway.

However much our relationship was obvious to long-time and voracious readers of the site, it would not have drawn the negative attention that it has without help from spiderleaf. I am grateful to those who knew and respected our privacy. I am still wondering why I got dragged into this in the first place, as Martin met Tracy at the same war protest I did. I feel I've been unfairly treated here too.


Impeachment: It's not just for blowjobs anymore.
Darth Cheney goes first.

by CabinGirl on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 11:29:55 AM EST
~~~~~

WHAAAAAAH!

Anonymous said...

What the fuck is THIS all about?!?!?

More innuendo and "iron-clad" cases which amount to a whole bunch of paraniod fucking bullshit .... gads!

oh, and , btw, these last 2 comments were brinn, before anyone blames someone esle for them!!

catnip said...

Some people need to buy a clue - badly.

NLinStPaul said...

I'm going to get something off my chest here.

I'm so sick of that "holier than thou" attitude of many over there in the cafe I think I'm going to be sick. They are soooo above it all.

When people are in pain, you step in and try to understand, help in any way you can and fucking get involved. Sometimes, you efforts aren't effective. But to sit back and claim superiority for NOT getting involved just pisses me off.

I had half a mind to go in there and ask SN and CB if they now understand what Catnip felt like when she saw Tracy trolling for personal information about her - or when Spiderleaf was called Liar about a million times.

But no, they are above it all there. And its only their victimization that matters.

I can only hope they see my little rant here. I'm not sure why I am honoring their "safe place" and not going in there to say it. But so it is.

spiderleaf said...

One last thing BooMan, and then I go watch 24. I missed this one the first time out...

attacking Man Eegee for bringing down the picture?

Another lie. What I said to Man E wasn't pretty, for sure, and we are in communication, but that's our business BooMan. But I certainly did not attack him for taking down the picture. I told him (in stark terms) that the photo was public and "thems the internets". And that I was not bringing him into it. It's in Tracy's Dear Mom thread I believe, or my Gore thread. I won't go find the link, don't want you to think I'm "using my special powers".

catnip said...

I think you answered your own question there, Nancy. Whether they understand where I was coming from is beyond my control. SN has obviously overreacted to something - I'm not even sure what. That she didn't give a flip about a real attempt to uncover someone's identity (mine) speaks volumes. That's the pattern over there though isn't it? If there isn't a crisis, just manufacture one.

catnip said...

I won't go find the link, don't want you to think I'm "using my special powers".

BT has a search engine? Who knew??

spiderleaf said...

Oh sorry, I did chastize man e for taking the photo down I just remembered. Sorry Martin for making that error. I don't know why you brought Man E into this discussion though.

okay, 24 is on.

Kamahya said...

Kamakhya here. Hi all. Whew...what a mess.

BooMan, I carefully read what you posted above about Spiderleaf and timing and all and I'm sorry, I just really cannot comprehend your position. FWIW, I have stood up for you repeatedly. I do care when people make unfair accusations against you and I speak out against them for the same reason that I spoke out against you on this Spiderleaf is a liar bs. I think it is important to be honest and open. It is the right thing to do. You are absolutely stuck in this weird place and no matter what is said, you simply cannot and will not see the situation from any other view. I'm not going to continue to try and get you to apologize, but you really owe the whole community and Spiderleaf a sincere apology. I agree with you that Spiderleaf should not have played the dating card, that who you are dating is irrelevant, but to continue to obsess over it is just so beneath you. To ban her for it is just ludicrous, especially in light of MT. I am deeply saddened by your behavior to the point that I lost sleep over it. I sincerely wish that you will at least ask the community for their input the next time we are faced with a situation like this. As it stands now, you look like a tyrant, even though I know that is not how you want to be perceived. You also look really paranoid when you continue your rants about how some people are blog wreckers. It reminds me of the crackhead I once lived with, convinced that the FBI was out to get her.

Spiderleaf, I am glad you saw my post. It was something I believed and I felt it was important to air the dirty laundry. I was so jealous when y'all met up in Long Island. It sounded like a great weekend. I have read the whole thread between you, MT, CG, and BM and quite frankly, while you were persistent and at times a bit harsh, I did not see you attack CG. It's only natural that you thought BM might be favoring MT because of CG, but I don't think you should have brought it up like that. But, tempers were flying, so I can understand. BM did favor MT because he is her friend. He unfairly accused you of lying because he is pissed off that you would dare accuse him of favoritism (or so it seems to me) and he perceived you as attacking his girlfriend. It was not rational, but it was understandable from a human nature perspective.

Catnip, I never understood why you left the pond. I was so excited to see you elevated to FP, that it all came as a real shock when you left almost immediately.

NL, I want to thank you for getting BooMan to apologize for his actions with MT. You are truly gifted. Your posts have been sane, unrelenting and I think you achieved at least a partial success. I wish you and all of us could get him to see how blind he is being over Spiderleaf, but it is clear that I will see snow in San Francisco before I see an apology for that.

Finally, for the record, this is my first post here. I've never emailed anyone at BooManTribune. I am not a member of the serial blog wrecking clique(tm), though I suppose now I will be considered one. I just really like y'all and as I have seen many of you drop out of sight at the pond, it has made me sad. I think having a place to bitch off the boards is a good idea generally speaking. It helps let off steam.

I'll probably continue at the pond, though I don't think I will be able to look at BooMan the same way as I used to. Of course, if all the people I love reading up and leave, there won't be much point in sticking around.

Ok, enough rambling. I'm so tired having only slept for four hours. I apologize if this is too long or convoluted, but I just wanted to get my feelings off my chest. Hugs to all.

olivia said...

Hey guys, the cafe has been a real good place to me and I can't let this comment go w/out saying my piece. I know that some of the people there are very upset w/ what is going on. Just b/c they do not feel comfortable voicing their concerns, does not make them high and mighty or uncaring. Diane pointed out in her diary today that some people don't know what to say, or how to intervene. (I was in this position during the last flame.) I know there are two specific individuals you have identified, but you have used the word many, so there are more than those I have assumed. I hope that you do not mean to label the entire group, just as you've asked of Boo to not do similarly to the mobetta bloggers. You know that there are people who have worked over the last w/e to resolve this who are (or were) regular visitors to the cafe diaries.

spiderleaf said...

I certainly do not olivia. I think the rhetoric has gotten way heated here and I'm very disappointed that I took the bait and responded to BooMan to begin with.

Damn, 24 is back. I will stop checking comments now.

Kamayhka, thanks so much for weighing in and for your comments here and at BooTrib. It means a lot.

catnip said...

Catnip, I never understood why you left the pond. I was so excited to see you elevated to FP, that it all came as a real shock when you left almost immediately.

That's not something I've talked about pubicly much since it was behind the scenes communications (which I won't make public) that spurred me to leave. I will say this however, as I've said and Booman has acknowledged many times in the past, my leaving had nothing to do with Booman. He was supportive of me when I was faced with what I had to deal with and asked me to come back after that. I chose not to because it was just too uncomfortable.

I know that doesn't help much and I know there are still rumours out there about why I left, but it was necessary for me to do so at the time.

And you're more than welcome to pop in here any time. You'll see that this isn't an echo chamber. We disagree with each other, deal with it, and move on - even though things get very heated at times. I think that says something about those of us who tend to hang out here.

Kamahya said...

Catnip. Thanks for the response. I really wasn't looking for dirt, I just wanted you to know I cared. You were a big reason for why I started to hang at the pond and I was upset when you left.

I do my best not to listen to rumors.

Diane101 said...

Hi, everyone, just trying to catch up on all of this and noticed my name mentioned a few time, incl. the comment from Teach saying I assume everyone agrees with me, no Teach, I don't think that at all. But I do think someone needed to stand in such a way and offer something as a solution.
I hope every one respects the effort I have put out over all of this but I am not sure based on some of the comments, but then again things are so confusing lately I could be wrong.

James said...

Hi Diane! Just speakin' for myself here - but as I said over at ye Olde Froggeponde you've gone above and beyond the call of duty. I wish I could be optimistic that it'd do any damned good - I'm not. But the effort had to be made.

blueneck said...

BooMan, one last thing, since I just noticed that your post above was addressed to me and I have to address a specific section of it if it was directed at me.

I just showed you a strong case that this woman that you are embracing and protecting has been making a case against me since July and that she just did it again in a hurtful, mean-spirited, and deeply personal way, and then lied about it.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I haven't taken a stand on that other than to say that I think it is all a childish game that is being played. On this specific matter, I do not know enough to have an opinion. I have hearsay evidence, from people with differing memories, nothing else, and no desire to pursue the details. I have neither specifically supported spiderleaf or you on this one. It just all seems very childish to me, regardless of who started and where it went after that. That's my position on that, and like I've said before, your relentless pursuit of it only makes you look bad, to me and probably to others. The only thing that I've said about this is that it pissed you off so much personally that you banned her and that you did not ever seem to understand it when others were equally pissed off by a troll or another member enough to drop the 'guillotine' on anyone else's behalf, even when the community WAS united against a troll.

And, as I indicated in my snarky reply above, it would be different if I felt that you had protected others along the way. When you turned away from some members to practice your compassion on others, I lost my ability to sympathize with you, to a large extent. I've explained elsewhere why I think that your compassion may seem laudable in one respect, but that it was self-defeating in another, and that justice is justice and that compassion for the many outweighs compassion for the few, imo.

As for my relationship with spiderleaf, it's virtually non-existent. I intend to build a relationship with her if she wants one with me and I'll find out for myself how I feel about her. If she treats me with respect, that's what she'll get from me.

blueneck said...

diane101, you are a treasure, and I've loved you from day one (or maybe it was day two or three for me at BT, but you get the idea, right? :))

I sincerely appreciate everything you have tried to do over there. You are an angel, and much to be admired, as I do admire you.

I don't think anyone here bears the slightest ill will toward you any way, if I may be so bold as to speak for:

NLinStPaul said...
Kidspeak said...
blueneck said...
catnip said...
Teach313 said...
olivia said...
CookTing said...
spiderleaf said...
supersoling said...
Nanette said...
Anonymous said...
Scribe here.
catnip said...
Iowa Victory Gardener said...
sjct said...
--brinn
James said...
Sirocco said...
cruz del sur said...
dove said...
Janet said...
canberra boy said...
Marisacat said...
boran2 said...

all of us.

Thank you for trying so hard. I gave up halfway through the rules to create a council, because it didn't seem to me that BooMan was really interested in the outcome of it. Maybe he is, and if he is, the second or third draft is still there for him to see, isn't it? He can certainly embrace it, modify, publish it in a diary and carry forward with that effort if he thinks it has merit.

And if he doesn't want it maybe someone else will, in some form, at some time, on some blog...

But I think that you will get nothing but BIG HUGS! (((((diane))))) and a lot of respect from this crew.

catnip said...

Hi Diane!

Check your e-mail. I sent you a message of support the other day.

James said...

A quick aside: cruz del sur has been having some login probs and just wanted me to pass on the message that he isn't trying to blow us off etc. Shizznit happens.

catnip said...

Catnip. Thanks for the response. I really wasn't looking for dirt, I just wanted you to know I cared. You were a big reason for why I started to hang at the pond and I was upset when you left.

I'm humbled. Thank you.

Diane101 said...

Which email a/c catnip, I didn't see one. Hey thanks everyone for your kind words and I was not fishing for them, just wanted to make sure as I have been misunderstanding some things lately and I think that's because there is so much going on and my head was whirling for a couple days and lord all this reading has my eyes ready to fall out.
It took me forever to find this place btw, I really had to track it down.
I mainly did the whole thing because of Super and Spider, btw and that is why I did the last diary in the way I did.
It's sad to see our grand experiment sag and teeter so badly after so much hard work by nearly everyone on this thread, and it almost seems like old home week, isn't this just about the heart of the boocrew here.

It's so hard for me to totally give up on it, so I had to try at least one last time, but you know it's tiring. Anyway, I hope you all get a site going, you know I can add a sub site to my site which has a great setup for blogging. If anyone is interested let me know and I'll see if I can figure it out and set it up. My site is a paid site so if I were to set up a stricly political sub site, it would help if then people would pitch in to defray the costs....
I would put in place some of the ideas I've been talking about on the site and let it be more member run as I don't really want to do all that much work.
So anyway, think about it, let me know. I'll be happy to work with you all.

So anyway, I've written so much in these last few days mybody and mind are rebelling so gotta go and rest for a bit and will check back later.
Catnip, send me another email or resend, to dianed101@yahoo.com
See ya later.

Diane101 said...

Oh catnip I checked email and there was none from you...so be sure to resend..

Diane101 said...

One more thing, lol, blueneck, thanks for those beautiful words, I am copying and saving them so I can read sometime when I am not up to par to pick me up...
About the whle resolution thing, well the input was done, the draft was done, it seemed at an end as far as people wanted to work on it so I think the points were made, now it's up to booman. He said he is considering them and I believe him so we shall see what happens.

Also blueneck thanks for the name list, I was trying to tell shirl all of them and I said oh it's all the people we know and love over there.

catnip said...

poop...I wonder who my e-mail went to then...lol

I'll see if I saved it, Diane.

catnip said...

Well there you go. I sent it to dianed1011 at sbcglobal dot net, I think. I didn't save a copy though.

catnip said...

If anyone wants to start a new thread when this one gets too long to carry on this conversation, go for it.

Diane101 said...

Okdokie, would have loved to have read it, but good to know you were thinking of me...I was thinking of you too, almost wrote but never got around to it.

catnip said...

Yeah, well all I can say is that with me, anonymous or not, WYSIWYG. I actually am this way in real life! Really!

Carry on.

Shirl said...

Just wanted to say Hi to all my favorite people and glad to see where I can find you.

Take care everyone
Hugs and Loves,
Shirl

catnip said...

Hey shirl! Welcome!

catnip said...

Ouch.

NLinStPaul said...

Olivia, it was way upthread, but I hope you'll accept my apology. I went to bed not long after I made that comment about the cafe - I think it was evident that I needed some sleep and rest from all this.

I shouldn't have made the generalization. I just went into the cafe to see how all this was/was not affecting things there. And what angered me was comments that people made that felt dismissive (to me) of what had happened." Maybe I read that in, I don't know, but I certainly know that it was painful for all.

Sorry I spoke with such a broad brush.

And welcome to Diane and Shirls. I just want to add my thanks to you Diane for all you did to both confront the situation and try to find a remedy.

scribe said...

Hey Shirl, good to see you..and g'morning to all. I hope everyone has had a chance to rest up, draw some deep breaths and is doing ok. I know I feel saner after just one day of NOT posting BooTrib Meta stuff, and a little better able to remember the wisdom of letting go of what I simply cannot change. If it's something important to me, I've usually got to give it one hell of a try first, for sure, but sooner or later comes that bittersweet moment when I know it's time for me to let it go..and move on. So many times, for me, it turns out that what feels like a very big loss, and really is, ends up being a gain: it's very easy to see how much I've gained from my time in the pond: like meeting all of you, for example and building some very real and lasting friendships with some.

There are lots of folks who make light of online friendships, seeing them as not really "real". I'm not one of them, however. I just did a little inventory of my addy list, and I counted the names of very 22 dear online friends I have been in regular contact with for over ten years. That's as real as it gets. So precious they are to me, to be there as my ability to rush about the outside world was slowly curtailed.

So ONward we go each at our own pace and in our own way!

Janet said...

Scribe, I'm so sorry this all hit the fan. Last time it hit, only a few people got splattered. Only a few left and they left silently.

This time... so many others got crapped on.

NLStPaul, I know how you felt about that. The day I had left, I went into BMT right after the primary election day to make a diary about Watada and while uploading photos... I went into the cafe. It was like being kicked in the teeth.

Olivia was the only one from the Cafe who reached out to me and wrote me to find out if I was okay.

It is very damning to see the flippant, dismissive remarks. It reminds me of the Right Wing's response to our being upset about the NSA. "Well if you don't do anything wrong, nothing bad will happen".

Seeing Booman's response to all this reminds me of how my Mother treated the abuse we got from my Dad.

Janet said...

I'd like to vent about this crap:

From Booman:

"Can we try to be clear about at least one thing?

If you say all people that have served in Iraq are war criminals if they didn't quit in protest or refuse to go in the first place....

And if your husband served in Iraq and didn't quit...

That by logical extension your husband just got called a war criminal?

Can we all kind of see that point of view?

Now, if I said your spouse was a degenerate adulterous child pornographer you'd take that as a personal attack.

We have to understand how these original comments were felt by military families. We do not have to agree with how they responded. We can even deplore how they responded.

We don't even have to agree that they should have been so offended, as long as we understand that they found those comments every bit as prickish as the ones the formed in response.

But as we've discussed, I can't define criticism of the military as a violation. In other words, I couldn't treat their pain as equal to the pain they inflicted in return. That is why they all left and all left thinking I was siding with the 'troop-haters' even as the other side insisted I was taking the military families side.

And in the last case, all I wanted was for Tracy to follow her own daughter'"

I DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THAT. Booman is distorting everything I wrote in regards to Watada. Cripes. Tracy takes anyone resisting this war as a personal attack against her husband. She has issues with HIM. So she projects it out on anyone who has the sack to resist. This is not about Tracy. This is about stopping a bloodshed.

Too bad neither Booman or Tracy bothered to learn about the Courage to Resist.

I guess IVAW is against Tracy, too. I guess they are anti-military family. Whatever.

Janet said...

That by logical extension your husband just got called a war criminal?

Logical extension???? So Tracy can distort things in her "logical" mind??? And now that is the reputation I now have at the green place?? I am now Anti-Military Tracy's husband??

I stood with thousands yesterday who quite honestly said harsher things than what Booman is saying that a "logical extension" of something I said.

They support the troops... they want them HOME NOW. They don't want them committing war crimes. They donw't want them there.

Diane101 said...

Hi Janet, I got accused of the same thing in the way back simply for trying to tell (?) it was not and did not have to be about her husband and that people had the right to think what they thought without it being about her husband. Janet I know how you must feel, but please be assured that those with half a frame of mind understand.
Even writing about the genesis of the whole sorry mess is hard to do as the whole thing was so twisted out of all recognition.
Eveyone I know loves you and appreciates you even more.

Janet said...

Thanks Diane.

I guess Desmond Tutu is also anti-Tracy's Husband too. As is Sean Penn and so many others. (snark)

It got so twisted because Booman did nothing. Now he's twisting my words from August(?). Here yea Here yea, all Pond People It is I, Janet, the evil doer who by "logical extension" called tracy's husband a war criminal...

Geezus what a pantload.

I support war resisters. Like so many others.
I shared an experience at a rally where a military wife flipped the fuck out on us and the discussion that followed that was - well her husband is just following orders and they have families to support.

That the engineers of the trains to the concentration camps had families, too. Didn't make any of it right.

So... that allows Tracy to EVEN NOW tell us to die. "Logical extensions" being what they are.

Janet said...

Every guy I met yesterday with an IVAW shirt or badge on... guess what...

They get no benefits, have lost their homes, their cars, in most cases their loved ones... even their parents turn them in. One man only had $180 when he returned from Iraq.

They have returned with severe illness, rare cancers, horrible disfigurements. Yet... they resist. Yet they have enough courage and conviction to say no to the Regime. OH gawd... the stories they shared. The media doesn't care. Most of America doesn't care but we should all be worried because Tracy is pissed off at me and pissed off that special forces make $12,000 a month. Screw it all.

NLinStPaul said...

Janet, I got really angry at that too.

If I'm thinking of the same comment you are, you will see, however, that I called Martin on that and pointed out that there was only one person who MAY HAVE been interpreted to say that and he left right away. Then Tracy let loose on you, BJ and Super, to name just a few, insinuating you were saying the same thing. Martin agreed with that. I'm not saying he fully gets it, but he did agree.

Janet said...

Sorry, I'm confused NL. Did my comment make you mad, too?

The comment came from a discussion of some of us in CP heading home from a somewhat disturbing rally. It wasn't directed at anyone or meant to bait anyone. It was a moment where you share the different sides.

Now, having heard Darrell Anderson of IVAW speak, and hearing the stories from the IVAW... they basically say don't support what you have no clue about. They say you wouldn't support anything goin on in Iraq or Afghanistan if you truly knew what was being done there. He said and the others say it too.. .the only way to support the troops is to bring them home now.

Diane101 said...

After reading all of Nlin's comments in the last few days, I will venture to say, no you did not make her mad, but rather just the opposite.
Say Janet did you receive my email the other day.

NLinStPaul said...

NO Janet, of course you did not make me mad. These damn internets, I need to remember to be more clear.

I wanted to join with you in saying that I got mad a Martin's comment too. But I wanted to also point out that there are lots of people, including me, who went in over there and tried to correct the record. In this instance, I think Martin may have "gotten it." At least he indicated that he did.

Janet said...

Thanks Diane... it's been a long week and the past 24 hours have been super long LOL. I just wanted to be sure. If I recall correctly and I probably don't because I don't seem to have these superhuman powers of memory like some do... My comment from the discussion after Ft. Lewis was made into a debate that I was calling non-resisters Nazi/Gestapo.

I guess people want to catagorize people so much that if you support war resisters as part of your overall activism to end the war - that you must therefore not support military families. It's pure BS.

The only way to end this war is for the ones who fight it to stop.

Also I'm just getting at all the various emails that weren't part of the Watada Rally or CodePink issues or school emails... I'm way behind. There it is... I got one from you regarding Village Blue. Thanks.

Janet said...

Whew, NL :) it's not the internetS, it's my widdle bwonde head... that gets things confuzzled :)

Diane101 said...

Gotta say Janet I love those lips and I always know you are around when I see them.
That whole topic we are just now discussing just got so convaluted as is grew, but really I can't think that any more than one or two didn't get what was going on.
Same discussion was had in the first month of the site do you remember janet when the Lt. was invited to come to the site and he just got ripped by a few and the same debate resulted with the same never ending fight and really it all might go back to that one although MT was not there then.
Gee what a neverending sentence that was.
It's just so good to be able to talk to you again J.

Anonymous said...

Just came back from the pond. I just wanted to test out my own reactions to being over there, reading awhile. It was a bit of a surprise to me to not experience much of a sense of loss at all. It was more like, "that's the place I used to be." without any real emotional reaction of any kind. There's folks there who are missing some of us and saying so. Strange sensation, a bit like attending ones own funeral.

Janet, good that you can let yourself vent in a place where it's pretty safe to do so, among safe and supportive others. We all need this sometimes to keep the internal pressures in safe range. You are involved in some extremely emotionally loaded, volitile situations. Taking real good care of yourself is not an "option", it's an absolute necessity!

scribe said...

That one above was me, Scribe.

Janet said...

Thanks Scribe, it got to the point where I couldn't freely discuss any demonstration or protest without being jumped on. There was really no point for me to post there at all.. even though so many said they missed me...

When you're dealing with safety issues and such... and the raw emotions of vigils/rallies... you can't discuss it while trying to censure yourself in hopes you won't by logical extension offend someone.

I even got accused of only showing the bad side of rallies... which was pretty disturbing as I always tried to balance it out in some ways. Or not say too much so that my best friend wouldn't tell my husband about close calls LOL. I try not to vent... moreso I try to share.

catnip said...

Janet,
I need to remind you of these words:

When we show up en masse when they jail a soldier refusing to do duty in Iraq and we all demand to be jailed with him we will all heal together and end the craziness at once! If your soldiers thought they could trust you to stand up for them the same way they stand up for you, you all would be the most powerful nonviolent military force this planet has ever seen!
Tracy, May 2006


That was from a blog that has since disappeared unfortunately but I quoted her last August in this Mo Betta diary. (And if you look at the scrap back then, it's about the same things that have been going on this week. So much for progress.)

And you know what? As far as this "soldiers are war criminals" thing goes, my perspective is this: people like Tracy are always very quick to remind others about how those who fight do so to protect the rights of those at home. Where they start breaking down is when someone exercises the free speech those rights allow. It's simply a double standard. Either they're fighting for everybody's freedom including free speech (and not just of those that agree with them) or they're not and if people have a personal problem with that reality, it's up to them to reconcile it without trying to stifle that free speech.

Just my 2 cents.

Focus on your good works, Janet.

Janet said...

I got alot of the "they're fighting for our freedom" crap yesterday. There was about ten counter-protesters... it that many... they were saying that Watada needed to remember to take vaseline to jail. They called us all sorts of names. I had a brief run in with one. Not reallya run in - she just started screaming at me and calling me filthy names.

They are not there for our freedoms. There is nothing honorable in this war. Nothing. Even when they die, their bodies aren't returned in an honorable fashion.

catnip said...

They are not there for our freedoms. There is nothing honorable in this war.

You know I agree with that. I'm just saying that their argument is a non-starter and people that like that woman who felt she had to scream at you have some damn serious issues if they can't understand why someone would refuse to serve in Iraq and speak out publicly about it.

Related: there's a committee hearing going on today (on cspan live online) about all of the money that's gone missing in Iraq. It's gotten quite heated at times already.

What a catasrofuck - as Jon Stewart calls it all.

Meanwhile on CNN: astronaut behaving badly! (because it's not like anybody cares about where all of their tax money has disappeared in the black hole that is Iraq).

catnip said...

Is anyone else contemplating starting a new thread? I'l do it if no one else has time or wants to take care of it.

scribe said...

PLease do Catnip..I'd do it bit my admin thing went kaput lone ago.. i can't even log in here now without retyping all those wierd stupid words every time

scribe said...

And I kant spell, neetherfxj

Janet said...

Wow and they say Watada is guilty of conduct unbecoming an officer.. they should be concerned about their astronauts. loL

catnip said...

lol scribe...okay, I'll start another thread...

catnip said...

****new thread****

Booman said...

Janet-

FWIW, my comment was about DTF, not you.

I don't think I ever found the genesis of your fight with MT and so I never really understood how it started.

I have said before, I didn't get involved in July until it had been going on a while and I couldn't reconstruct what had happened.

I heard a lot of references to MT saying harsh things to you, but I never saw them specifically. And I really have never considered that mess to be about you. I knew you were hurt by it. I don't mean I didn't care.

I considered it to be about DTF (and his supporters) on the one hand and people that were offended by DTF on the other (and their supporters).

I didn't agree with either side. I thought DTF's side was being unsypathetic and I thought the military families were overreacting in a hard to understand way.

Nothing I wrote was aimed at you.

Janet said...

Booman, You weren't very clear on that now were you? At all. And you sure did jump in to defend Tracy recently as if you understood it all.

And.. There was no fight. It takes two to fight, I always refused to engage with her because I cared about her deeply and felt she must be having some severe issues at home...

But you know what. She's not the only one with stress, or a disabled child, or other worries. It's just that some of us choose not to attack people.

Okay so what if you could write something aimed at me... what would you write? Did you even know I had left? Or why? ...

I have to go to work so I won't be able to respsond for a while

Nanette said...

I considered it to be about DTF (and his supporters) on the one hand and people that were offended by DTF on the other (and their supporters).

I didn't agree with either side. I thought DTF's side was being unsypathetic and I thought the military families were overreacting in a hard to understand way.


While Ductape does, and always has, occupy a good position to be made a convenient scapegoat for other people's behavior, this is just ridiculous statement, BooMan.

I can't believe, (but I suppose I must), that you never once listened to the many, many people that told you... "This is not about Ductape". The people who tried, and apparently failed spectacularly, to point out the vicious and unprovoked attacks on peace activists and others - on Man Eegee, on Boston Joe, on Janet, on scribe, on diane, on Shirl, on spiderleaf, on NLinStPaul, on and on... I can't even remember all of them. Many of them were not, and are not, in any sort of "camp", or on anyone's side. They just happened to be in the way, or to say something other than "It's okay, lash out and spew vitriol on anyone you want, it's okay, we understand". Instead, they tried (and continued to try) to do your job and attempt to bring some measure of control to the situations and were consistently and viciously attacked for being who *they* were.

Not. About. Ductape.

And I really can't believe that you didn't hear a one of them. Or see one time when she, time after time after time after time attacked Janet for even mentioning protests or Lt Watada or her own military family, her fears about confronting recruiters and so on. Again... Not. About. Ductape.

I wrote an entire diary that was not about Ductape (although many people, including yourself, tried to turn into that)- about some of the militaristic, right wing, McCarthiest language (screeches of "anti-American! at random people, included) being used on the site in attempts to shut up people on the left - people who wrote about the military or about failed Democrats or failed US policies, or whatever... only one of the targets of them being Ductape, the rest just people, some of whom hadn't even been following what was going on.

I am simply amazed that you heard none of that, when it was told to you over and over and over and over again, by many different people, in many different ways.

It can be nothing but willful blindness - and that you are still using Ductape as an excuse for her behavior towards everyone else, when he hasn't been writing anywhere at all for months and months, is just appalling.

When, exactly, in your world does she ever have to... or more accurately it seems, will she be allowed to come to terms with herself and take responsibility for her own actions?

I know she is not on the site anymore (as I am not) but that doesn't, in my opinion, resolve many of the overall issues.

dove said...

"I considered it to be about DTF (and his supporters) on the one hand and people that were offended by DTF on the other (and their supporters)."
BooMan

Then you were sadly mistaken.

Several people went to some lengths to explain, in various and sundry places including on your website (and certainly far more eloquently than I ever managed) that a lot of what happened last year was not 'about DTF' but was very much about racism, nationalism, U.S. imperialism and Islamophobia.

While it may be more comfortable to reduce the political and the systemic to the individual and the personal, that particular move is both passe and inaccurate.

If not before, it became inaccurate when Pat Lang said to Londonbear, "You are clearly a Middle Eastern or South Asian person. No. I take it back. You are an Egyptian" with the clear implication that nationality provided sufficient grounds to discount his words --and this went largely unchallenged.

The 'DTF is a doo-doo head' line of argument was never among my favourites, but was preferable to 'DTF is a foreigner / Muslim / (assumed) refugee' line of argument.

I could go on, but I suspect there is very little point. If you haven't grasped that by now, you certainly won't grasp it from me.

dove said...

Well, I think we're playing 'snap' Nanette (the card game, though in my case, alternative meanings might also be appropriate). I have written again, BTW.

Diane101 said...

Nanette, the above you just wrote was spendid, and sums my views up very nicely, something I could never come up with myself.
UI was lumped with the DTF side I guess when in reality I was in the middle, seeing both sides but not accepting the vindictivenes.
I tried to show that with my friend Sallycat, even tho she was my friend, I felt compelled to say that she was out of line during her fracas. She and MT (which is one of the time MT went after me) both saw me then as being in another camp,when I have never been in a camp at all.
I think we have to assume that Booman has not seen the stream of comments that most of us have, doesn't see it develop as we site addicts do and therefore it's must be hard to access.
All of this many of us tried to say over and over till the hush up and stop talking people came around, and then it was pushed under the rug.
these thread surely indicate the effect it has had on all of us and how it needed to be worked out ever so much earlier.
To an earlier commenter unknown name, about why do we all care and feel, cause we shared times together, talked on the phone, went along in blogland on others adventerous trips, heard each others life stories, and so on that led to the building of a community just like any in real world.

spiderleaf said...

dove, Pat Lang said to Londonbear, "You are clearly a Middle Eastern or South Asian person. No. I take it back. You are an Egyptian" with the clear implication that nationality provided sufficient grounds to discount his words --and this went largely unchallenged. I remember that well. I took much offence to that statement myself. Ridiculous and bigoted. And on a "progressive community".

Nanette, yes, I remember all too well the attacks Tracy and MWAC launched on me for daring to be Canadian. It was quite informing. And of course it continued unabated against all you mention until we left the site when BooMan would do nothing. And then Tracy did... until she came back.

It's like Groundhog Day.

Nanette said...

LOL, no kidding, spiderleaf on it seeming like Groundhog Day. And thanks, I couldn't remember that name MWAC. I kept wanting to call him ShadowThief for some reason...

dove! Yay, and I am not sure what all the various meanings of "snap" are, lol. Although I have learned the one that applies here. Also, I have commented on your writing.

Diane, yes I remember your trying too and getting hit at for your efforts... obviously *nothing* that was said by so many people penetrated at all. I'm still in shock.

Nanette said...

I have to admit tho, I got a big kick out of MWAC trying that "you're anti-American!" slop with Madman in the Marketplace. He knew not who he was trying to tangle with and attempting to quell. Between Madman and (I think it was) James, the poor fool was batted about (with facts and things) all over the place. Gold.

I laughed for days afterward, whenever I thought of it.

I just thought I'd mention that, as I thought of it again when I read the name... and, yep, still laughed ;).

Man Eegee said...

BooMan, I suggest you take some time to re-read some of the BooTrib threads from last August to understand why this whole thing is not as clear cut as you seem to think. I'll save you the trouble of looking for links, the majority of the fight happened here, here, and here.

Man Eegee said...

ummm. August. Also known as July.

catnip said...

Yeah. I was going to go back and read through those diaries, ManE (and hi, btw), but I.just.can't. The cognitive dissonance and conclusion-jumping was so far out of control that it's like revisiting a nightmare over and over.

I know you didn't post those links for me, and I'm glad you posted them for others who may also wander along here wondering wtf the meltdown was all about, but man it's hard to go back there.

And I agree with the wise women above: this wasn't about Ductape. It was about huge misunderstandings and bits taken out of context that snowballed into a bloggy blizzard.

And I still don't care what people who didn't understand Ductape thought about his writings. The man made me think and that ought not be a dangerous concept.

NLinStPaul said...

Ductape made me think, he made me cry and he made me laugh. I think in hockey terms they call that a hat trick (but I'm probably showing my ignorance here - unlike others, I'm definitely not a hockey fan.)

Anyway, I miss him for all that. This re-visiting of old times just makes me remember how much.

Diane101 said...

I loved him too and we had a lot of fun with his writings in the early days, plus his 30 or 50 page diary not sure anymore how long it was, but whatever it was the record.